Michelle
First novel published
Posts: 2,563
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Post by Michelle on Apr 21, 2007 8:00:32 GMT -5
I can definitely respect the religious view that marriage should be between a man and a woman (I'm Catholic so I hear it alot), but I don't think that is a reason to ban it. Those with those views should just not do it - it doesn't affect them. As long people aren't harming others, they should be free to make choices even if those choices are morally wrong in the eyes of others. I believe that everyone has a right to beleive what they want, and no one else should be able to force their beliefs on them.
Another thing to think about is the benefits that you get from being married (most of which you will also get in a civil union) - health benefits, tax benefits, etc. I don't think people should be denied these benefits.
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Post by Hanna on Apr 21, 2007 8:16:38 GMT -5
That is true, but in Norway politicians will force the church to perform (not sure that's the right word here) these marriages and that would be wrong for the church. But to get married outside the church is something else of course!
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Post by Hanna on Apr 21, 2007 8:30:13 GMT -5
I'm sorry Dorothy, I just saw your question on the last page now. I've never studied too much the whole marriage as an holy institution thing, I know it is but that's about it. The reason I am against gay marriages is that the church might have to compromise itself and go against the Bible, because the Bible clearly states that physical relationsship between two of the same sex is sin. There is a big BUT here, so please continue to read. But (this is the big one;)) what many Christians fail to realize/say, and many non-Christians fail to understand (probably because of us not saying it) is that it is no bigger sin than anything else, like lying, or pre-marriage sex or disrespecting your parents. So the harassment and prejudice against gays are completely unbiblical and Jesus would never have accepted it. To Him everyone is the same because of the fact that we are all sinners, one way or another. Wow, I'm turning this into a sermon, sorry. I hope you guys get what I'm trying to say, it's difficult to explain but I think it's so important to get the message through that the Bible doesn't think worse of gays than anyone else! And I think it's important to say that I have good friends that are gay myself, so I'm not totally subjective to the whole thing, and I think this is a very difficult topic!
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Michelle
First novel published
Posts: 2,563
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Post by Michelle on Apr 21, 2007 8:48:05 GMT -5
I agree that the state should not be able to force churches to perform marriages. I know that the priest at my church can refuse to marry people for many reasons - not thinking they are ready, failure to go through the preparations, etc.
I also agree with you about it being no greater sin and that Jesus would have accepted gay people just as he accepted everyone.
You say that the Bible clearly states that sex between two people of the same sex is a sin, but isn't that still open to interpretation? I don't know enough about the Bible to argue for the other side, but I know that I have heard that it depends on the interpretation.
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Post by Hanna on Apr 21, 2007 9:09:28 GMT -5
You'll find it mentioned in several books in the Bible, some of the most known I guess are Leviticus 18:22, Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:9-10 all states pretty clearly that it is wrong. (i don't know how it is written in an English bible, so if you look it up and it don't make sense I'm sorry;)). When it comes to interpretation I don't know how it was in the days of the Old Testament, I mean gay sexuality in society, I have no idea. But what I do know is that during the Antique philosophers praised homosexuality as the highest form of love, so I sincerely doubt that Paul, and the rest of the gang didn't know about it! So I don't really get where the uncertainity of the text is...hope that was a bit helpful!
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Post by Dominique on Apr 22, 2007 8:10:25 GMT -5
I don't really agree hannamarie (respectfully though ), but I think what you say is very interesting about everyone being sinners and gay sex not being more of a sin than lying etc . May I ask what variant of Christianity you belong to? It sounds like it might be more of a modern one because my experience with Catholicism is quite different. I can't remember if I've already said this here or not (and I can't be bothered looking) but I view homosexuality as a natural state of being rather than a sin. It has been observed in all different kinds of animal species and with high statistics of it. I don't feel that it is sinful, just a certain state of natural sensuality. Back to what Kristie said about the other things that aren't against the law but that don't incorporate reproduction, something I have been confused about with gay sex and masturbation being called sinful is that if men don't masturbate or have sex or whatever they secrete semen anyway. Like natural secretion. So without heterosexual sex the sperm is wasted anyway? Also I have a theory that perhaps since when the bible was composed, or the different sections were written, the world's population was much smaller, therefore maybe gay sex and masterbation etc are sinful because building a population was necessary then. Where as now the world is straining under the massive human population living in it so maybe it is not as relevant anymore?
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Apr 22, 2007 12:13:37 GMT -5
I may have mentioned this already, but the ancient Greeks believed homosexuality, among men at least, was a very good thing. Women were below men, and therefore when men had sex with women, they lowered themselves. But if men had sex with men, it was kept at the same equal level and was definitely not frowned upon in any way. So says my history professor at least...
I agree with the last couple of things you said, Dom. I like your theory also, it really does make sense. (Not to mention the Bible is old and has been translated thousands of times and has many different versions, so the pure text of it may have been lost long ago.)
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Michelle
First novel published
Posts: 2,563
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Post by Michelle on Apr 22, 2007 14:40:17 GMT -5
Whether or not today's Bible is correct and true is a whole separate debate, but I do think that it is important that today's society is different.
As for it being a sin, I know that the Catholic view (which I'm not comdemning nor condoning here) is not that being gay is a sin, but that acting on those impulses is a sin. So even if it is how you are born (which I think it is) that is not the sin, you are just supposed to remain chaste. It is justified the same way the prohibition on birth control is. Sex is meant for procreation and if you aren't open to procreation when you have it, then it is wrong. That's a very simplified version, but I think it's the basic idea. I think that consentual sex b/w adults of any gender is not someting that the church or government should try to control at all.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Apr 22, 2007 14:42:24 GMT -5
I agree. Why should it be controlled? It's nobody else's business really.
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Post by Hanna on Apr 22, 2007 17:30:39 GMT -5
Dom, I don't mind you asking what variant of Christianity I belong to, it's Lutheran Evangelical:) I've read what Kristie says too, about how in ancient Greece homosexuality was a very good thing. As for the reliability of the Bible that is a whole different discussion altogether, and I don't have too much knowledge on that subject either. I know of Norwegian translations only, but that's not relevant for anyone else so...
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lindsay
Collection of short stories published by an independent editor
"I think we ought to read only the kind of books that wound and stab us." - Franz Kafka
Posts: 741
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Post by lindsay on Apr 23, 2007 8:15:29 GMT -5
All I can say is I love Canada for legalizing gay marriage. LOVE LOVE LOVE. We may have our problems but that is not one of them.
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Bina
First novel published
Posts: 2,472
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Post by Bina on Apr 23, 2007 14:15:36 GMT -5
I don´t mind a sermon, hannamarie To me the bible is an interesting read. I love Canada for it, too
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Michelle
First novel published
Posts: 2,563
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Post by Michelle on Apr 23, 2007 14:43:05 GMT -5
Yes, Canada has taken a nice approach. I've often thought that I should move to Canada, because they seem to handle important issues better.
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Michelle
First novel published
Posts: 2,563
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Post by Michelle on Apr 23, 2007 14:47:12 GMT -5
I'd also like to make another point about constitutional amendments banning gay marriage. The constitution should be used to protect rights, not limit them. I think any amendment to the US or a state's constitution is wrong if it promotes discrimination of a group of people. This argument is completely separate from my thoughts that gay marriage should be allowed. I think any legislation should be statutory only.
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