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Post by bookaddict on Dec 15, 2006 20:12:07 GMT -5
I'm wondering why politicians do not agree with this, shouldn't it be a religious topic? What are the politicians getting by not allowing it? Shouldn't they be focusing on other topics?
I have not done much research on this, or read much about it. I was just wondering...
In Canada gay marriages are allowed.
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zeldafitzgerald
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
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Post by zeldafitzgerald on Dec 15, 2006 21:56:23 GMT -5
New Jersey just legalized civil unions, but they are not called marriages. I'm happy they're getting rights, but I think it's dumb lawmakers won't go so far as using the word "marriage."
I feel very strongly about this issue. My best friend is gay, and I'm a big supporter of equal rights in general.
Here are the main arguments in America against it, and why I think each is crap.
-"It's morally wrong." - Sorry, but we have this thing called "separation of church and state." Sex before marriage is morally wrong according to most religions, but you don't go to jail for consenting sex between adults. You can't make laws around religion and I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE that so many people still try to. If you're not interfering with other people's rights, then it should be legal. If you think it's wrong, then don't do it yourself.
-"If someone can marry a person of the same sex, then what's to stop things from going further and people being able to marry dogs or pets?" - This is a ridiculous argument. This is similar to arguing against woman's right to vote by saying that "If a woman can vote, what's to stop us from letting dogs vote?"
-"Legalizing gay marriage will lead to the depopulation of the earth." - I've HONESTLY heard this argument before. It's clearly not a rational argument, as not only can gays have children, but the earth is already overpopulated and we're not that far away from the point in time where the earth's resources won't be able to support all the humans.
-"Marriage is a tradition. It's scared and it's always been between a man and a woman." - Slavery was a tradition. So was suppressing woman's rights. Just because something is the way it's always been, doesn't mean that it's the way that's treating everyone fairly.
These are some common arguments and what I think about them......
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Post by bookaddict on Dec 15, 2006 22:30:00 GMT -5
I agree
It use to be said that women could not vote because they were too emtional, therefore could not make good decisions. I don't understand why politics is so focused on this issue. There are so many more problems. In the U.S people are dieing because they cannot afford their medication or go to a doctor. I think that should be taken care of. Politics and religion should be seperate. Other countries have wars over religious issues...
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zeldafitzgerald
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
ancora imparo
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Post by zeldafitzgerald on Dec 15, 2006 23:01:03 GMT -5
I believe there are MANY things that are bad about America and need to be changed.
I hate that some people think that means I don't love my country. I do love my country, and that's why I want it to be as good as possible.
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Post by Dominique on Dec 15, 2006 23:09:21 GMT -5
I agree with everything everyone else has said. The civil union thing you talked about is at least a step forward, in Australia gay couple's rights go no further than those of a de facto couple. At least they will have the same legal and property rights as everyone else now with the civil union.
Also about this morally wrong argument against gay marriage, being homosexual has been very strongly suggested by the scientific community over the last few years to be entirely due to genetics and factors to do with your birth. For example in a recent study there was very strong evidence to suggest that when a woman has a son her body has to be programmed to accept the feotus living inside of her, but after a couple of sons the baby can somehow get feminised by the mothers body fighting against the child and therefore the study said it is likely that sometimes about the third son may be homosexual as a result. Obviously this is just an example of the many scientific studies on homosexuality and I've explained it from memory and in my very rudimentary understanding of science. But my point is like someone else said: why are laws based on religion? Particularly when evidence suggests that homosexuality is entirely a natural phenomenon.
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Bina
First novel published
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Post by Bina on Dec 16, 2006 9:17:30 GMT -5
Yeah, I heard something about the role of genetics but I haven´t read anything about this study.
In Germany civil unions are lawful since 2001 and I think it´s ridiculous not to call it marriage but I doubt it´s going to change with the current government. The Netherlands are much more tolerant and have real gay marriages.
What´s up with Massachusetts on this topic?
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zeldafitzgerald
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
ancora imparo
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Post by zeldafitzgerald on Dec 16, 2006 9:29:13 GMT -5
I believe Massachusetts is the only one of our 50 states to actually call it a legal marriage.
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Bina
First novel published
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Post by Bina on Dec 16, 2006 9:31:13 GMT -5
I´ve read that somewhere but I wasn´t sure if they had changed it back because it was apparently dividing the people.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Dec 16, 2006 23:28:55 GMT -5
i'll write more on this later, seeing as i'm going to bed soon. but i wrote a whole paper for english this year on why gay marriages should be legal. i'll have to look at it again to get my points, but i agree with what zeldafitzgerald said.
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Isa
Administrator 
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Post by Isa on Dec 18, 2006 8:56:08 GMT -5
So do I. Two consenting adults should be allowed to get married and celebrate their love, period. All other arguments are based on religion, and religion should never come into play when discussing laws. After all, a marriage in its strictest sense is a legal contract - whatever moral or religious flavor is added to it depends on the couple getting married. I've seen many marriages celebrated between a man and a woman that had no moral value whatsoever, and yet nothing prevented them from getting married...
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czarval
Collection of short stories published by an independent editor
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Post by czarval on Dec 21, 2006 16:54:34 GMT -5
I agree with that. Religion comes in only with the style of ceremony chosen. A marriage in a church, is just as valid as a marriage by justice of the peace.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Apr 20, 2007 14:21:24 GMT -5
To go back to this issue, in my philosophy class I learned a great way to refute any argument considering marriage is for procreation and lesbians/homosexuals can't produce offspring. We just touched on it for a bit, but here it is. If it is illegal for homosexuals to have sex (or marriage) because it doesn't procreate, then it should be illegal for women to have sex after menopause, it should be illegal to perform oral sex, and it should be illegal to masturbate. All of these don't procreate either, but they're not illegal...
At least I thought that was an interesting view.
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Michelle
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Post by Michelle on Apr 20, 2007 17:15:24 GMT -5
I am ashamed to be from a state that recently amended its constitution to prohibit gay marraige.
I don't know if it would be legal for the US gov't to ban gay marraige (and luckily that constitutional amendment failed), but US states can get away with all kinds of things by claiming it is for the welfare of its citizens. It's the same reasoning that applies to abortion - the US gov't wouldn't be able to constitutionally ban abortion, but it could make it possible for the states to do it. I don't think a first amendment attack would work because there isn't any explicit religious purpose in it and marraiges are more than religious since they give you rights under a state. It would have to be a due process / right to privacy attack like abortion and sodomy (you're right that oral sex isn't banned anymore, but it was in some states until very recently).
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Post by Hanna on Apr 20, 2007 17:20:12 GMT -5
In Norway same sex marriages are not allowed yet, and I know I'll make myself very unpopular when I say that I'm against gay marriages, but I'm a Christian, and I have to respect the Bible more than public opinion. In our country state and church are not separated, but it seems as Norway is going in the opposite direction of the US in that here politicians "decide" what the church shall stand for and that's just wrong. I think it would be better if politics and religion were to be kept separately. I think it's important to say, however, that my being against gay marriage does not mean that I agree with all the main arguments in America that Zelda posted! There is such a thing as respect for every human being, and some of those arguments (DOGS?!) lack that...
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Bina
First novel published
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Post by Bina on Apr 21, 2007 6:58:20 GMT -5
Are you against gay marriages because marriage is a holy institution? I think that´s one of the main arguments the church gives. I agree that church and government should be seperate. Government is for all the people and church is generally about one religion and everyone has to figure that out for themselves.
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