oureternity
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
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Post by oureternity on May 13, 2008 6:55:41 GMT -5
That actually struck me too, being aware of the time it was written (late 40's), I felt like it was really written around the 80's... How weird is that? Clearly Orwell's message was to criticize the totalitarian government, he did it through (I guess you could call it that) 'science fiction'. The tools Orwell uses in this book are modern - the telescreen, the whole computerized industry, the laboratories etc. I felt like even today I feel that this is sort of what might be going to happen in the future. So the overall message I got is that this book is absolutely relevant and is even somewhat a warning, to open the eyes of the people from these ministries. Ironically enough, around that time WW2 took place, and the awareness was pretty shocking, because it simply didn't exist. The fact that one person can become a dictator and take over so many countries, kill millions of people, and no one would take a real step to stop him and the crazy power in his hands, instead, there'll be people flocking after him and helping him, is just appalling. And this is what I felt like this book was about. My point is, maybe the simple writing was like you said - for the ideas. I guess Orwell wanted to make this book relevant for the next decades to come and his way of achieving his goal without making it irrelevant was to write it in simple words, so the message will be delivered. Because if he wrote it in a more upgraded writing style then people might have lost interest in his concept, and in order to keep them into it he wrote in a way that would attract them (whoever the readers are), to this day. It's just an assumption, I'm babbling really
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oureternity
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
bam.
Posts: 1,568
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Post by oureternity on May 13, 2008 7:03:39 GMT -5
Another comment about the Ministry of Love, about what you said Dom.
It's a pretty weird name because the ministry itself uses force, hate and torture towards the citizens of Oceania, but I guess it relates very much to its purpose which is to make the citizens love and adore Big Brother. That's really what the ministry is responsible for. It's a misleading name because they use the opposite thing (hate) to make them love Big Brother.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on May 13, 2008 7:58:29 GMT -5
To add to your comments on Orwell's style, I also think that because of what goes on in the book - words being deleted, thoughts being reduced to their most simple expression - he had to go with a simple style. The reader is sort of taken inside Winston's head, and even if he's got an edge over most other people in the book, he's still a victim of the system and I don't think it would make sense for him to make up very elaborate sentences in his mind.
I couldn't help but think about Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" as I was reading 1984. To me, what goes on in "Brave New World" could totally happen, while I find it harder to believe that 1984 could. However, I do think this sentiment is highly influenced by the fact that I've witnessed the fall of the Soviet Union, and I wonder how I would have felt about the whole thing if I'd been old enough to read the book during the Cold War.
Another novel that came to mind was "Fahrenheit 451", because in both 1984 and F451, books are perceived by the government as dangerous weapons because they give rise to thoughts and provide freedom. We can see the effect that having no real books and history records around has had on Winston as he can barely recall his childhood. Also, I find it interesting that the goal of newspeak is to make words disappear so that people won't be able to express their thoughts and feelings anymore, hoping that without words, thoughts and feelings will become such an abstract concept that people will simply stop thinking and feeling. Just like when I was reading F451, it makes me happy to be such an avid reader, and I can't help but feel a little bit sad for people who don't read at all.
At this point in the novel, do you guys believe in the whole "Big Brother is Watching You" thing? I mean, do you believe they can actually see people through the telescreen or is it just an idea they've put into people's head that works just as perfectly as if they could actually see them?
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anne
First poem written for Mother’s Day
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Post by anne on May 13, 2008 8:35:38 GMT -5
At this point in the novel, do you guys believe in the whole "Big Brother is Watching You" thing? I mean, do you believe they can actually see people through the telescreen or is it just an idea they've put into people's head that works just as perfectly as if they could actually see them? That's exactly what me reminded me of the Panopticon.... you need just one guard, or even no guard at all. But the "prisoners" don't know if they are being watched or not..... I think they CAN see the people through the screens... but maybe there are only about 10 people who do this....(Maybe they explain it later in the book?)
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Lu
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Post by Lu on May 13, 2008 11:01:57 GMT -5
I didn't notice the simplistic writing Orwell uses when I read 1984 translated into Italian (probably I didn't pay enough attention), but this time I did and I agree with Isa. Also, I find it interesting that the goal of newspeak is to make words disappear so that people won't be able to express their thoughts and feelings anymore, hoping that without words, thoughts and feelings will become such an abstract concept that people will simply stop thinking and feeling. I find it very interesting too! Same for the character of Winston's "friend" Syme, I agree with Winston, he'll probably be vaporized. I think people can actually be seen by the telescreen, doesn't that happen to Winston while he's exercising? The idea of the thoughtcrime (and, consequentially, of the Thought police) really struck me, it's scaring that you even have to wear a certain expression on your face or you might be accused of unorthodoxy...what if you accidentally have a bored expression when Big Brother is talking on a telescreen?? That makes relations to other people absolutely impossible. I find sad that Winston can't remember of his childhood, I wonder what happened to his family.
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Post by Lucky on May 13, 2008 13:24:06 GMT -5
Also, I find it interesting that the goal of newspeak is to make words disappear so that people won't be able to express their thoughts and feelings anymore, hoping that without words, thoughts and feelings will become such an abstract concept that people will simply stop thinking and feeling. Yes.. I think it's very interesting idea too. But it has to be very long process.. I can't realize how it happend. And about the main idea of the book I agree with oureternity - that it's something what might going to happen in the future and it's something like warning. About "Big Brother is Watching You" thing.. In my opinion they could watch everyone, but they didn't do it. But because of the possibility that they theoretically could do it.. people were naturally frightened and who would risk? Just like lu I didn't notice the simplistic writing Orwell uses - I'm reading it in czech (of course ) .. but when you mentioned I focused on it and you're right.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on May 13, 2008 14:14:34 GMT -5
I think people can actually be seen by the telescreen, doesn't that happen to Winston while he's exercising? I don't have the book with me, but here's my conspiracy theory (for what it's worth): I think the gym instructor yelled out a name (it wasn't Winston's) and told him to stretch out farther and then said something like that's it, you got it! For all we know, it could have been something the party came up with to make them believe they're watching them, even if they aren't. Does that make any sense? I don't know, at this point in the novel, I just get this weird vibe that they might not actually be able to watch them, but we'll see... can't wait to read more actually!
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Bina
First novel published
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Post by Bina on May 13, 2008 17:42:44 GMT -5
I also think that it would be impossible to watch all the screens showing the people, but they certainly give away that impression with Winston seeking angles from which he can´t be observed, the gym teacher and later o´brien.
However the people do not need to be watched by Big Brother with loyalists and especially children trained to do so for them.
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Post by Lucky on May 14, 2008 6:11:33 GMT -5
Maybe they could watch only a few people.. and then the other people got naturally the feeling it is possible.
I'm really exciting about how it is going to unfold.
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Post by Carma on May 14, 2008 11:19:29 GMT -5
well, they did have specific groups (with the morning gym) didn't they? they called out people from that name to that name, if I remember correctly. but it would still be lot of people, so I don't think they'd be able to watch them all... and during the day, you'd never know when they were watching you. i think that gives a bit of fear, even though they mabey don't look at all...
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Post by Lucky on May 14, 2008 12:35:09 GMT -5
well, they did have specific groups (with the morning gym) didn't they? they called out people from that name to that name, if I remember correctly. but it would still be lot of people, so I don't think they'd be able to watch them all... and during the day, you'd never know when they were watching you. i think that gives a bit of fear, even though they mabey don't look at all... But that names, which they called out, didn't have to be real. They could be fictitious. Of course I don't know it sure. It's only my opinion. And maybe I overlooked a piece of information, which is important.
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Post by Dominique on May 14, 2008 19:42:23 GMT -5
1984 really does remind me a lot of Brave New World as well, and F451. I guess they're all about totalitarian governments. The other novel it reminds me of (which is of course more recent but I had read it first) is Margaret Atwood's A Handmaid's Tale, but that was supposedly modeled on 1984 a bit. The totalitarian government in that one is a religious one though.
I think I'm really drawn to novels about totalitarian governments, I really enjoy them for some reason. I think these books reflect a lot of our fears about the world and society and people's concerns about the political system. Now so, especially 1984, they also reflect the fears surrounding (at least in my country) new terrorism laws and laws infringing on privacy in order to protect security. I read someone comment (in a facebook review of the book) that they aren't sure how relevant the book is because of the fact that the date 1984 has already passed. But I think it will always be relevant because there will always be something in our society to be feared that, in the worst case scenario, could impact on our civil rights. Such as technology or anti-terrorism laws etc.
I agree with everyone about the simplistic writing, its kind of didactic, by not using the more complex writing often seen in books I guess Orwell could be taking care not to distract people from the point he's attempting to get across.
I think The Big Brother is Watching You thing is largely a psychological manipulation to gain control. If you're in such a state of fear that you're worried you could look like you're thinking something Big Brother wouldn't approve of then it's highly unlikely you would ever actually become involved in traitorous activities of any sort. I agree maybe they can see you through the screens, but it seems to me like even if you had the technology to do it, it would be hard to have the manpower to watch absolutely everyone on a regular basis?
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Post by swissmiss on May 14, 2008 21:39:41 GMT -5
I think the Big Brother is Watching You is definitely more of a way to instill fear and obedience in the general public. I do think that they can see you if they want to though. I know Orwell said somewhere that it was either they could see everyone all the time, or they randomly flipped through channels. I'm guessing the latter is true.
I think it's really interesting how everything in this totalitarian world seems to be opposites. There's the obvious: the ministries of love, hope, peace, etc all mean the opposite of what they should be. Also the government's slogan (I can't remember it off the top of my head) is a complete list of oxymorons. I think this method along with Newspeak are ways for the government to lose the significance of language in general.
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Lu
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Post by Lu on May 15, 2008 12:46:46 GMT -5
that's true swissmiss, the slogans are: war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strenght. They're very ambiguous... I think people can actually be seen by the telescreen, doesn't that happen to Winston while he's exercising? I don't have the book with me, but here's my conspiracy theory (for what it's worth): I think the gym instructor yelled out a name (it wasn't Winston's) and told him to stretch out farther and then said something like that's it, you got it! For all we know, it could have been something the party came up with to make them believe they're watching them, even if they aren't. Does that make any sense? I don't know, at this point in the novel, I just get this weird vibe that they might not actually be able to watch them, but we'll see... can't wait to read more actually! You're right...it is possible...more possible than watching everyone 24 hours a day actually. I guess I'd be an easy victim to their psychological manipulation! ;D
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Post by Carma on May 22, 2008 9:36:51 GMT -5
oh wow, I totally forgot about this discussion! any thoughts on the next section? I actually don't remember what was in that section, but i thought I'd try to keep the discussion going.. or something oh, and Lu, I'd be an easy victim as well!
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