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Post by tahlia on Aug 17, 2007 23:32:13 GMT -5
i've been trying to read as much as possiable - but its hard to do at work, ive only been able to read a handful of pages. its such a page turner. i'm dying to flip the pages to read what happens next. my heart goes out to dolly. stepan is sucha sterotypical male thinking about sexual "passion" rather then love for his wife. even though the book was written so long ago, the themes run true today. tolstoy writes in such a way that puts you in the middle of the page. so far i love this book!
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bluejay765
First short story featured in regional newspaper
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Post by bluejay765 on Aug 17, 2007 23:41:21 GMT -5
this is so great! everyone is voicing my opinions exactly in response to your opinion that stepan is a "stereotypical male" because he's thinking about sexual passion rather than love for his wife, i have to make a point. maybe it's just that i am the kind of person who is hopelessly in love with the idea of "love at first sight" and "one person for everyone," but i seem to think that, here, stepan's "sexual passion" is the right way for him to go. (although i do think that his method of treating his wife is not the most respectful that i have ever read )
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Post by tahlia on Aug 18, 2007 18:11:44 GMT -5
bluejay, you read my mind exactly. I, like you, believe in love at first sight. I rationalized in my mind that stepan is NOT such a horriable person for what he did or the way he is acting. That's life. Women do the same thing to their husbands. A person cannot help the way they feel. If he is not attracted to wife anymore to the point where he had an affair with the french governess, then so be it. I think he loves his wife - because it is possiable to have strong feelings for someone and not be sexually attracted to that person. And the opposite is true, he had sexual feelings for the governess yet did not have a love for her. my symapthy for dolly's position and the way tolstoy described her feelings, really touched my heart- brought me to question the notion of "love at first sight" if you truly love someone you would not cheat. regardless if you lost attraction. its a thin line between what it means to love a wife or husband and be loyal and what it means to be true to yourself. Sometimes you cannot please yourself and your spouse- as in in the case with stepan.
can you explain more on what you meant that his sexual passion is the right way for stepan to go?
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bluejay765
First short story featured in regional newspaper
"I can go from zero to studying in less than sixty seconds."
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Post by bluejay765 on Aug 18, 2007 23:28:08 GMT -5
Thanks, tahlia! Really good points on your part as well. I found your comment on how Dolly and Stepan's position brought you to question the notion of "love at first sight" very thoughtful. It really does, because, here we have, in this (assumingly) overwhelming burst of passion, Stepan cheating on his wife and, through the semi-flashbacks we learn that getting to marry Dolly was no easy feat. So, right there, we have the information that he fought for her hand, which leads us to believe that he married for love (there is, also, the possibility that he was marrying her for her wealth. In that case, my point goes entirely out the window). But, because he cheated on her, it leads us to assume that he never actually loved her, which makes the whole world seem very desolate.
What I meant about how Stepan should follow his sexual passion is this: in the end in all matters of love, I believe that the first instinct is how you really feel. If, deep down, you get this very happy and satisfied and warm and comforting feeling, you should probably go and introduce yourself. If you get this very happy and satisfied and warm and comforting feeling with a touch of "breaking the rules", maybe not (I'm just going by textbook stuff here, I 've never actually felt like this).
So, if he felt something strong enough to make him forget his wife and children and the stable, if not perfect and loving, relationship that they have created, I think he should go for it.
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Post by tahlia on Aug 19, 2007 0:25:02 GMT -5
bluejay -i love your reply. this thread it great! too tired to reply now - but i will in the morning. in the meantime check this link out i found when research leo tolstoy. he was an interesting man! the link is from ophrah's book club. it has cool features like pronouncing the names - which is good for me, b/c i am know i am saying them all wrong! ha. www.oprah.com/obc_classic/featbook/anna/obc_featbook_anna_main.jhtml
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Post by Dominique on Aug 19, 2007 2:27:44 GMT -5
Great discussion about Stephan and Dolly guys, but I have to say I disagree . Stephan to me seems like the kind of character who can never really be in love with anyone in a sense that is not purely temporary. Anna (I think it was Anna?) talks about the intensity of Stephan's feelings for Dolly in the early stage of their relationship, which I guess could be called is first instinct about her. I hate to say it but some men are habitually in and out of love with women. I think it's more of a personality thing. Stephan seems like a very fickle and self-absorbed character, this is also shown in the way he forgets how sympathetic he felt towards Levin when he is talking to V about how Levin wants to marry Kitty. His wife gave her life to him to bear him children and look after him, she devoted herself completely to caring for him and he sees her more as a familiar but boring object just because she has been on the scene for more than five minutes. I don't think Stephan should have gone for the governess and all the other women alluded to but I think it was something inevitable due to his personality. That's my opinion anyway Some of it may be a little off if more is revealed about him later as I am still only about 100 pages in.
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bluejay765
First short story featured in regional newspaper
"I can go from zero to studying in less than sixty seconds."
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Post by bluejay765 on Aug 19, 2007 12:09:38 GMT -5
Good point, Dom That's another way to look at it. I mean, we've been talking about how either he was passionately in love with Dolly or passionately in love with the governess. We've never suggested that he might be a "serial lover" who loves a woman for five minutes and then gets bored. It's something that no one, not Dolly, not Anna with her vouches that he does love her, can change. He's like a little boy who's never grown up in a way. Also, in answer to your point about how Stepan forgot how sympathetic he felt to Levin, that's another sign (in a way) that he's not completely there. He knows how to play the charade very well, which accounts for his marriage, place in society, and acquaintances. However, deep down, it's like he never really was taught right from wrong and so grew up with this personality that was wonderful on the outside but untrustworthy and slightly cruel on the inside. As I'm writing this I'm thinking of the girls from "Mean Girls" just because he's a slightly superficial man And tahlia: the link looks awesome! Thanks.
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Post by tahlia on Aug 19, 2007 23:22:52 GMT -5
Dom's reply to Stepan is what i meant by a sterotypical male - alot of men are like him, who as you said fall in and out of love with women. very few seem to have the romantic view of love such as levin's. Bluejay, i totally agree that stepan is a serial lover! and no woman can change that sort of quality in a man. Some men have the facade of being a serial lover - (example: to prove that he is a "man" among his friends) while others (stepan) cannot settle down with one woman for whatever the reason. i dont think we will ever know why men such as stepan behave/think the way they do, women have been trying to pick the male brain forever.
i like tolstoy choice of charachters. im only 70 pages into the book so i can speak on much .. but i like the contrast between levin and stepan. as the book states it was partly their opposites that made them such a good friends. i think the two charchters play nicely off of each other. Levin's charachter seems to hold no facades; you can the sense the purity in his personality such as in the way he appreciates the simplicity in life and in women. stepan's charachter is very much the opposite. his charachter is complicated - hard to fully grasp what he is all about. he seems to be hiding so much, unlike levin 's character, who is fully exposed to the reader. ( i could totally be wrong on this - because i havent read much, but its just my view thus far)
i also think its interesting that kitty's father is okay with levin marrying his daughter and it is the mother who wants V. to marry kitty. I would think it would be opposite- it is mainly the father who is concerned about his daughter's status in society and finical matters thus wanting her to marry someone like V.; and the mother who wants true love and happiness for her daughter. I'm not sure if others read that as interesting, they way I did.
tolstoy writes such beauty. i love the way he describes the two different kinds of women and relationships. If tolstoy really based levin on himself, he must have been such a sweet man!
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neh
Collection of short stories published by an independent editor
"I live in two worlds; one is a world of books"
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Post by neh on Aug 20, 2007 1:08:46 GMT -5
I haven't yet read this book - i shall one day, don't worry - but i do want to be an idiot and ask a silly question - in GG season 1, Dean states "every person's names ends with 'ski'" - now, is this the case? No, really - is it difficult to keep up with who is who because even in Modernism and Performance at Uni, doing Soviet Drama, we find it tough reading plays to keep everyone in check coz with nicknames and such being entirely different names from their originals, it gets very confusing!
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Post by tahlia on Aug 20, 2007 20:35:11 GMT -5
ha, neh you made me laugh! Most of the names end with "ski" or something close to it. The readers are informed of the charachters full name but most of the time they are referred to by just one name - for example, stepan arkadyvitch oblonsky is usually refered to a stepan or oblonsky. you get the hang of it. its not that bad. its really not a hard read. i was afraid to read this book because of the length and because tolstoy is russian - russian writing confuses me. but its a great book and suggest everyone to read it.
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bluejay765
First short story featured in regional newspaper
"I can go from zero to studying in less than sixty seconds."
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Post by bluejay765 on Aug 21, 2007 7:46:08 GMT -5
i also think its interesting that kitty's father is okay with levin marrying his daughter and it is the mother who wants V. to marry kitty. I would think it would be opposite- it is mainly the father who is concerned about his daughter's status in society and finical matters thus wanting her to marry someone like V.; and the mother who wants true love and happiness for her daughter. I'm not sure if others read that as interesting, they way I did. I agree, tahlia, although I wasn't too surprised because in a lot of other books, the father is the sympathetic person. For example, in "Pride and Prejudice" Mr. Bennett is the only sane-minded person (besides Jane, possibly, but she's always nice) in the family. You're right, though, usually it's the mother who encourages the daughter to "go and find her heart," so to speak. And in reply to your comment on the friendship between Stepan and Levin: yes, yes, YES! I've gotten the feeling that Stepan has a very significant role in the upcoming plot precisely because he is such a complex character. I can't say anything more, though, because I've...erm...taken a little break. I got to Part 2 and all the talk about kopecks and rubles and philsophy irritated me.
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Post by tahlia on Aug 21, 2007 20:55:56 GMT -5
I'm not too sure i buy Anna's reasoning as to why dolly should make amends with stepan. Tolstoy described dolly's emotions so strongly and uncompromisable, then Anna visits and she forgives stepan. i also did not like Anna's reasoning for dolly to forgive stepan. she basically told dolly that is the way men like stepan behave and it meant nothing. she pacified stepan's actions. in my opinion she made dolly feel kind of guilty for shutting stepan out. i felt so bad for dolly. i understand that anna is stepan sister therefore she will "stick up" for him, but in every relationship, no matter how close two people are linked, one must draw a line between truth/reality and their own emotional reasoning
dom- in your original post for this thread you wrote kitty seems to like V. only because thats what her mother wants. I am curious what made you think this. I ask only because its possible i over looked this when reading or didn't read this far into the book. i keep reading back to see if i missed that part.
V. dissapointed me. i thought his charachter was more like levin, but now i think his persoanlity is closer to stepan - self centered. both stepan and V. make me apprecaite and love levin even more! ;D
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Post by Dominique on Aug 21, 2007 21:25:20 GMT -5
I think it was mainly from commentry from other people like Dolly and her father that this was the case. That she preferred V because her mother taught her to. And Dolly tries to find out whether or not Levin had made an offer to her before V revealed himself. I thought that was a good insight into her behaviour because it just seemed to ring true to me. Sometimes women convince themselves they are in love with someone just because outwardly they seem to be the "right" choice or because other people tell them what a good match they would make. I don't have time to find the exact passage right now but I will have a look next time I pick up the book
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Post by tahlia on Aug 23, 2007 22:05:11 GMT -5
thanks dom, you don't have to look for the exact passage, its okay. but thanks.
i've just stared part two. next week i have off from work (YES! YES! YES!) so i hope to finish or at least be close to finishing.
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Lu
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Post by Lu on Aug 24, 2007 3:29:06 GMT -5
Interesting discussion...I should have waited this before reading Anna Karenina I think Dom is right about Kitty, I agree that she preferred V. because her mother taught her so. I also liked the comparison of Kitty's father to Mr. Bennet. As tahlia, I didn't like Anna's reasoning to help stepan, it was probably the most reasonable thing to do in that case but I perceived as she made Dolly feels sorry..but she hasn't done anything. I thought I'd enjoy more V. but I didn't like him at all, although he really have an important role in the story. My favorite character has always been Levin, since he first appeared to the end of the book...this might be a reason why I couldn't stand V. since the beginning.
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