bookworm
Collection of short stories published by an independent editor
"Everything you can imagine is real" - Pablo Picasso
Posts: 973
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Post by bookworm on Feb 5, 2008 11:58:41 GMT -5
Great idea guys!
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Isa
Administrator
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Post by Isa on Feb 10, 2008 15:56:35 GMT -5
Part 3:
I gotta start by saying that Part 3 was by far my favorite part in the entire novel. I enjoyed reading about Briony's training, and also about how throughout that entire period she felt more like a writer in disguise than an actual nurse. Just like Robbie and Cecilia had been a source of inspiration back when she was just a kid, now she saw her patients as good book material. I think it all makes her choice of not going to college appear as an even bigger sacrifice, because deep down she's a writer through and through.
What did you guys make of the letter Briony receives from the editor who's read "Two Figures by a Fountain"? We find out that in the first draft, Cee goes in the fountain fully clothed whereas in the novel (and what we can only assume to be the another draft), Cee gets rid of everything but her underwear. I thought that was such an excellent spin because it makes you reassess the entire story knowing that i) Briony wrote it and ii) she may have changed some of the facts. In fact, for all we know, the story between Cee and Robbie ended at the fountain and everything else comes straight from Briony's imagination, at the editor's suggestion that the child witnessing the fountain scene could come between the two adults, be used as a messenger and ultimately expose the two lovers.
I was surprised to find out about Lola and Paul's wedding, I thought that he wouldn't want to have anything to do with her after that night... Somehow it reminded me of the plot of the novel "Pamela" by Samuel Richardson, in which the young woman ends up marrying the man who attempted to rape her. And you're right Dom, I did catch the similarities between Lola and Nobokov's Lolita. It made me cringe a little knowing that Paul and Lola would get on with their life and that the truth wouldn't be exposed until they both died...
The final scene between Briony, Cee and Robbie was fascinating! I couldn't wait for Briony to finally be able to tell them they had been wrong about Danny Hardman, and that Robbie had been wrong to think she had acted out of jealousy. When they ask her what made her change her mind and she simply replies "Growing up", I thought that was brilliant. She doesn't try to make up stories to defend herself, she just tells it like it is. She was young, she was confused, she acted out of love for her sister and by the time she realized she'd done something wrong, it was just too late. How they were not able to understand that being so much older and supposedly more mature than she was is beyond me.
I thought the very last scene in the book, in which they celebrate Briony's birthday by having the little ones perform her ill-fated play, was very moving. Of course, we also find out that Briony never did have a chance to talk to Cee and Robbie and that she had created this scene as a way of coping with the past, which I also thought was very sad. In the end, as the reader, I can only offer her what she wanted the most: I forgive her.
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Michelle
First novel published
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Post by Michelle on Feb 10, 2008 19:11:51 GMT -5
Well I haven't really been very good at discussing this books since I read it awhile ago but I agree that the last part was my favorite. Especially when we find out that she never does have that discussion with Robbie and Cecelia. I just couldn't get that out of my head for days after I finished.
I also thought about how much of the story was real and how much Briony made up. She definitely tells us that she made up some of it so I think we are to assume that other parts are made up as well.
And I loved that they performed the play at the end. It gave the book some great symmetry and sort of gave us some form of closure even though Briony never really got to apologize.
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Post by bookaddict on Feb 11, 2008 4:37:58 GMT -5
I agree, the story lost credibility when I found out that the conversation with Robbie and Cecelia didn't happen. I really wondered how much was read, and how much was fake especially considering she's a novelist who has dementia. I say novelist, because we know Briony's love for the dramatic. I really liked the ending because it gave us some insight into Briony's life. How after all these years she is still bothered by a mistake when she was younger. She was just a child after all. It's really sad that Cecelia and Robbie never get their happy ending.
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Lu
Administrator
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Post by Lu on Feb 11, 2008 5:47:34 GMT -5
I loved this part. The final scene between Briony, Cee and Robbie was fascinating! I couldn't wait for Briony to finally be able to tell them they had been wrong about Danny Hardman, and that Robbie had been wrong to think she had acted out of jealousy. When they ask her what made her change her mind and she simply replies "Growing up", I thought that was brilliant. She doesn't try to make up stories to defend herself, she just tells it like it is. She was young, she was confused, she acted out of love for her sister and by the time she realized she'd done something wrong, it was just too late. How they were not able to understand that being so much older and supposedly more mature than she was is beyond me. That scene was absolutely brilliant, it's my favorite. I was shocked of Lola and Paul's weeding. At first I didn't like the ending, I don't know why...but then I liked it, it was really touching and it was very nice that they could perform Briony's play. I was also pleased by the fact that the two twins was part of Briony's family, that was so moving!
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bookworm
Collection of short stories published by an independent editor
"Everything you can imagine is real" - Pablo Picasso
Posts: 973
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Post by bookworm on Feb 11, 2008 6:34:15 GMT -5
I was really anxious to see Briony finally talk to Cecilia and Robbie and I loved that scene between them... Then we find out that she never got to explain and that they didn't actually have a chance for a happy ending and that's so sad and tragic. I think that's why the book made such an impact on me and it stayed in my mind for days...
I liked that the ending was so private, through her thoughts we see how she spent her life trying to come to terms with what she did...
Oh and as for Lola and Paul's wedding, it was a little freaky!
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Post by Carma on Feb 11, 2008 7:22:06 GMT -5
I also liked the part when Briony talks to her sister.. even though it never happened.. but I just didn't really like that last part when she's older... I don't know why, but it just seemed uninteresting to me... I did cry somewhere in that part.. but I don't know, I found it a bit unnecesarry (sp?)... For me it would've been a nice ending before she's demented... I didn't find the wedding part surprising, but that's because I kind of skipped a lot of pages and read that part earlier on.. because I got kind of bored at the first part and I wanted to know if it would get any better...
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oureternity
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
bam.
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Post by oureternity on Feb 11, 2008 8:35:03 GMT -5
I thought the very last scene in the book, in which they celebrate Briony's birthday by having the little ones perform her ill-fated play, was very moving. Of course, we also find out that Briony never did have a chance to talk to Cee and Robbie and that she had created this scene as a way of coping with the past, which I also thought was very sad. In the end, as the reader, I can only offer her what she wanted the most: I forgive her. This is exactly how I felt. At first I thought - what an annoying spoiled little brat! like most of us thought during the discussion of Part 1. But as the plot developed I was more compassionate with Briony. When she became a nurse and all I was still skeptical, especially after seeing it from Cee's point of view, but then I learned the real essence of this novel - Atonement, it is called like that for a reason, but not because of what she said in the end, but because the whole book was some kind of process. The sin, the recognition of the sin, and then the atonement. I thought it was sad, the whole situation with Robbie and Cecilia in the end, but at the same time I couldn't think of a better idea for an ending than the one McEwan chose. Like Isa said, Briony's character seemed desperate for the reader's compassion, and in every forgivness there's compromise.
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Post by swissmiss on Feb 11, 2008 12:47:51 GMT -5
I agree. In part I I definitely thought Briony was a spoiled brat and disliked her a lot, but in part III I began to like her better. I feel like the last part gave Briony's deepest inner thoughts, hoping that by doing so the reader would forgive her.
I keep wondering what other part of the novel Briony could of made up, since she did make up her meeting with Cee and Robbie. Was it really dramatized, as we all know she yearns for in her writing? But at the same time, I feel like she wouldn't want to make herself seem worse than she already was as a child, since that would defeat her purpose of hoping for the reader's forgiveness.
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sagedautumn
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
You Might Need This!
Posts: 1,509
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Post by sagedautumn on Feb 12, 2008 8:02:46 GMT -5
I thought it was interesting how surprised she was to see Robbie. I know they emphasized this in the movie especially but even in the book they emphasized her surprise in seeing her sister and Robbie living together. In the movie, they panned to the unmade bed from the room in which Robbie awoke from. Similarly, in both the book and movie when Robbie and Cee kiss Briony is unable to compose herself and takes to staring out the window. It shows that Briony is still as prude and traditional as her sister is a rebel and liberatarian. I found this parallel interesting. Even with all that the two sisters exchanged in their lives there is still a core difference between Briony and Cee. What it also shows is how detached Briony is from the world. While Cee and Robbie have been able to build a cacoon of intimacy around each other Briony remains detached and unable to thoroughly communicate. Whether it is the strict regiment of the nursing program or her own character we don't 100% know. But I felt it interesting that the only time she found solace was when she was writing just like when she was little.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Feb 12, 2008 15:03:11 GMT -5
I have to agree with some of you about the last part being my favourite. I think it's because they were all adults in that part and therefore they all understood one another. I really like that Cee finally saw Briony, and I was completely surprised when Robbie popped up! I thought he hadn't got back from France yet, let alone be in Cee's apartment. It's good that the three saw each other, but I would've liked them to have that all-important discussion.
As for Paul and Lola's wedding, I was not surprised at all. I never felt like Lola felt anything towards her rape, definitely not anger. She just seemed like she asked for it and got it. I had actually thought they would end up together from the time I realized that it was Paul and not Danny who raped Lola. I kept thinking about those captives who fall in love with their captors--although in this case it wasn't captor but raper.
It was interesting, the ending, about how Briony turned out to have written the whole story. It does definitely leave one to wonder just how much of it she made up. She may have dramatized everything.
Sage, I must be honest with you--if my sister and her boyfriend started making out just a few feet in front of me and I was the only one in the room I would avert my eyes as well, and not because I'm a prude. It would just be awkward...
All in all, I didn't enjoy the book as much as I'd hoped, but it was still good. I wasn't as disappointed with it as I was with Reading Lolita in Tehran a few books ago.
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Isa
Administrator
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Post by Isa on Feb 12, 2008 15:29:21 GMT -5
As for Paul and Lola's wedding, I was not surprised at all. I never felt like Lola felt anything towards her rape, definitely not anger. She just seemed like she asked for it and got it. I had actually thought they would end up together from the time I realized that it was Paul and not Danny who raped Lola. I kept thinking about those captives who fall in love with their captors--although in this case it wasn't captor but raper. I wasn't surprised that Lola would get married with Paul, for all the reasons you mention Kristie, but I was surprised that he would marry her. He's obviously greedy, judging by how excited he is at the thought that he might sell chocolate during the war, and Lola's family is not wealthy, so I don't get what's in it for him, especially after he's already had his ways with her. I'd be curious to know how she got him to eventually fall in love with her - do you think she might have bluffed and threatened to reveal the truth (even though doing so might bring her down at the same time)? Sage, I must be honest with you--if my sister and her boyfriend started making out just a few feet in front of me and I was the only one in the room I would avert my eyes as well, and not because I'm a prude. It would just be awkward... LOL, ditto!
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sagedautumn
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
You Might Need This!
Posts: 1,509
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Post by sagedautumn on Feb 13, 2008 7:50:45 GMT -5
I was talking more about the parallel between the two sister's personalities rather than Cee snogging right in front of Briony.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Feb 13, 2008 14:39:11 GMT -5
Yeah, I understand what you mean about their different personalities. They could hardly be more different. And I'm wondering how they turned out so different from one another, aside from the 10(ish? I can't remember how much older Cee was than Briony) years between them. Also, Emily's mothering abilities at the time they were children were very different, so that might've caused some difference.
Isa, I don't know why Paul would get tied down to Lola. Maybe, despite his greediness, he was also "gentleman-like" in his following through with her lol If you can be gentleman-like after you've raped someone. Maybe he wanted to do right by her. She may've bluffed to tell the truth, but I doubt she would've in the end.
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Isa
Administrator
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Post by Isa on Feb 15, 2008 18:50:39 GMT -5
Don't forget this weekend's chat sessions:
America: Friday, Feb. 15, 8:00 pm EST (NYC time) Australia: Saturday, Feb. 16, noon EDT (Sydney time)
America: Saturday, Feb. 16, noon EST Europe: Saturday, Feb. 16, 5:00 pm GMT (Greenwich time)
Europe: Sunday, Feb. 17, 9:30 am GMT Australia: Sunday, Feb. 17, 8:30 pm EDT
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