Isa
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Post by Isa on Nov 13, 2009 8:18:59 GMT -5
Did you guys feel bad voor Himmelstoss when the boys attacked him? I actually did... You have such a big heart, Carma! ;D Can't say that I did, quite honestly, the guy's such a jerk I think he deserved it. I think he's a pretty good example of how some people will let power go to their head if they're put in a position of authority. I think this comes up especially in people with low self-esteem.
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Lu
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Post by Lu on Nov 13, 2009 8:35:23 GMT -5
I haven't finished chapter V either. My edition has chapters divided differently so I thought to stop at chapter IV. I think the most moving part, to me, was this quote: "Kropp on the other hand is a thinker. He proposes that a declaration of war should be a kind of popular festival with entrance-tickets and bands, like a bull fight. Then in the arena the ministers and generals of the two countries, dressed in bathing-drawers and armed with clubs, can have it out among themselves. Whoever survives, his country wins. That would be much simpler and more just than this arrangement, where the wrong people do the fighting." (page 40 in my book, in Chapter 3) The quote is so true. The diplomats start war and everything like that, but they don't do any of the dirty work (in most cases). This quote is true. It also reminded me of some of Tolstoj's reflections in War & Peace (Carma also mentioned it ), such as the one about soldiers who follow one leader (more like emperor, in that case) and fight their fellow creatures, more similar to them than the leaders who send them to war. I read War & Peace years ago and I couldn't find where in the book Tolstoj talks about this.
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Lu
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Post by Lu on Nov 13, 2009 8:41:08 GMT -5
Did you guys feel bad voor Himmelstoss when the boys attacked him? I actually did... You have such a big heart, Carma! ;D Can't say that I did, quite honestly, the guy's such a jerk I think he deserved it. I think he's a pretty good example of how some people will let power go to their head if they're put in a position of authority. I think this comes up especially in people with low self-esteem. Ahah, I agree he deserved it and I think he knew that!
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Nov 13, 2009 10:22:48 GMT -5
To answer your question about fear, I think soldiers come to feel it and react to it the way animals do. Fear is a necessary stress for animals, it keeps them alive when there's a predator coming. Animals are not afraid about the future, they're not afraid they might not find a partner, they're not afraid they might lose a friend... They're only afraid of imminent danger and death, the way these soldiers are. When Remarque writes about horses and rats, I think he's actually pushing the reader to make the connection between soldiers and animals... I see your point, Isa. And having read the actual battle-scene now, I understand exactly what you mean. I remember reading somewhere that the narrator, Paul, actually used the term "human animals" although I'm having problems finding where exactly it was in the book.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Nov 13, 2009 10:31:29 GMT -5
Did you guys feel bad voor Himmelstoss when the boys attacked him? I actually did... You have such a big heart, Carma! ;D Can't say that I did, quite honestly, the guy's such a jerk I think he deserved it. I think he's a pretty good example of how some people will let power go to their head if they're put in a position of authority. I think this comes up especially in people with low self-esteem. I can't say that I felt very bad for Himmelstoss either, Carma. I really understand where Paul is coming from when he says that, in general, Himmelstoss just let his rank go to his head. While I've not really experienced that with any of my own peers or anything, I think it happens oftener than we really know about.
In another note about Himmelstoss. Did anyone else think to translate his name? I knew right away that Himmel means "heaven" in German. But I just looked up stoss and it could be "hit, strike, knock" etc. I think that's interesting, just thinking of, like, heaven striking down or something. Maybe this possible meaning will have some part to the story later.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Nov 13, 2009 11:10:00 GMT -5
Or it could be something like "knocking on heaven's door"? Interesting...
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Post by Carma on Nov 14, 2009 6:56:50 GMT -5
I also really liked that passage, Kristie. I also liked the part about the earth being their best friend (or something in that manner). I can't quote directly from the book, since I am reading a dutch translation. Did you guys feel bad voor Himmelstoss when the boys attacked him? I actually did... You have such a big heart, Carma! ;D Can't say that I did, quite honestly, the guy's such a jerk I think he deserved it. I think he's a pretty good example of how some people will let power go to their head if they're put in a position of authority. I think this comes up especially in people with low self-esteem. Yes, I did think he deserved it, but I still felt bad for him!
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Nov 20, 2009 8:58:01 GMT -5
On to the next section!
I thought the description of the attack in Chapter 6 was breathtaking. Only someone who's actually fought in the WWI trenches and been to the Western Front could have written such a cool and yet powerful account of all the horrors that went on there.
For me the most powerful sentence in the book so far is the following: "We are forlorn like children, and experienced like old men; we are crude and sorrowful and superficial - I believe we are lost." At this point, the narrator knows that he has seen too much horror, and that in order to be able to bear it all without going crazy, something human inside of him has had to die. He knows that it won't be possible for him to go back to a normal life after the war because no one can live with all those awful memories. It also reminded me of Gertrude Stein referring to the young men coming back from WWI as "the lost generation", because they were unable to work, unable to engage in real relationships, they were merely drifting and drinking the remainder of their life away...
Of course, when the narrator goes on leave, it all becomes true. He realizes that he's not able to speak about his experience with anyone because his mind refuses to put it into words. Sitting in his old room, he realizes that nothing from his life before the war means anything to him anymore. When I read the part about how street noises scare him because it can sound like shells, it reminded me of something I saw on TV about a Canadian soldier who had come back from Afghanistan with post-traumatic stress disorder. He actually had to sell his house and move into the country, he couldn't hold a job, he couldn't even use a microwave anymore because the beeps reminded him of the sound mine-clearing devices make.
If Carma felt bad for Himmelstoss, then I kinda felt bad for Kantorek. I don't think he meant any harm when he coaxed his students into enlisting, I think he did it out of patriotism. I didn't appreciate his former student using his new-found authority to ridicule his old schoolmaster, because that made him no better than jerks like Himmelstoss in my mind.
When the narrator returns to the training camp, I think we can see the effect that his leave has had on him. Already, he can't think of the Russian prisoners as enemies - instead, he sees human beings who have developed strong friendships, just like he and his fellow soldiers. I think this will make it hard for him when he goes back to the front...
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Post by Carma on Nov 21, 2009 11:28:26 GMT -5
Woops, I haven't read much last week, but I'm sure I'll catch up soon! (it's pretty quick to read )
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Post by Carma on Nov 22, 2009 8:15:56 GMT -5
Ok, I finished this section and I have to say it is very moving! When in chapter 6 all the wounded soldiers are described, that just made me say Ew, out loud. I could totally picture it! And at the end of the chapter, when they are left with a small regiment, that was just sad... I certainly had to sniffle away some tears!
I also feel bad for Kantorek and the way Mittelstaedt treats him. I agree with Isa that he is not much better than Himmelstoss.
I like how Himmelstoss changed for the better after having fought for real. And I am sad for Haie...
It also shows that the people back home have no idea what it´s like for soldiers. Just like the people on top have no idea what it is like on the front. Like that guy the narrator meets on his leave, who tells him where they need to break through. Those people don´t think about all the lives that are lost at the front.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Nov 22, 2009 9:26:46 GMT -5
It also shows that the people back home have no idea what it´s like for soldiers. Just like the people on top have no idea what it is like on the front. Like that guy the narrator meets on his leave, who tells him where they need to break through. Those people don´t think about all the lives that are lost at the front. That's a good point, Carma! It seems to me like they comment about the war the way we might sit in the bleachers and comment about a sports game - so easy to say what they should have done to win when you're not on the field and have perhaps never even played the game!
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Lu
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Post by Lu on Nov 22, 2009 12:35:16 GMT -5
I'm a bit late, I finished reading this section yesterday. This book is really good. It also shows that the people back home have no idea what it´s like for soldiers. Just like the people on top have no idea what it is like on the front. Like that guy the narrator meets on his leave, who tells him where they need to break through. Those people don´t think about all the lives that are lost at the front. That's a good point, Carma! It seems to me like they comment about the war the way we might sit in the bleachers and comment about a sports game - so easy to say what they should have done to win when you're not on the field and have perhaps never even played the game! I agree, it does seem like they comment about a sport game...and it's so disturbing, especially because they think to know things better than the narrator! I don't like Kantorek and I understand why his old students hate him, but I felt bad for him. Remarque's descriptions are so very vivid, all the fight and hospital parts make me feel terrible. I really liked the part about Russian prisoners.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Nov 25, 2009 0:54:46 GMT -5
On to the next section! I thought the description of the attack in Chapter 6 was breathtaking. Only someone who's actually fought in the WWI trenches and been to the Western Front could have written such a cool and yet powerful account of all the horrors that went on there. I haven't finished the section yet, but I did finish Chapter 6 earlier so I thought I'd react to this part of Isa's post.
I have never read such a descriptive narrative of war. While I was reading this chapter though, I thought of how bad it really must have been. And, this might be a little weird, but I even started imagining Hitler as the writer. As I've been told, Hitler was horrified by certain aspects of fighting in WWI, so I thought trying to see it as his viewpoint would be an interesting twist.
I'll add to this thought when I've read a bit more...I'm really liking the book so far!
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Nov 29, 2009 10:02:52 GMT -5
Here are my thoughts on the last section:
In the last chapters of the novel, I thought it was interesting to see the struggle between the man and the soldier. What I mean by that is that we've already talked about how dehumanized and desensitized the soldiers have become, but once in a while their more human side shows up. We see it a lot in Chapter 10, when they're at the hospital. It also happens when the narrator kills the French soldier who has jumped in his hole - when he finds out what his name is, and that he has a wife and kid waiting for him at home, for a few hours the narrator is in complete agony because for the first time since the beginning of the war he realizes that he has killed a man. However, he eventually realizes that to make it through the war, he's gonna have to put the whole experience aside - you can't afford to have feelings in this war. We later see what happens to the soldier who sets out to save the messenger dog...
I think it was Kristie who mentioned that she hadn't thought about the fate of German soldiers before reading that book, and it's the same for me. In books and movies, they're usually portrayed as the villains - but when you read about how weak they've become now that they're about to lose the war, that they're starving and have no amunitions left, you realize that they too were innocent young men thrown into a senseless war by mad politicians.
It was very sad to read about Kat's death, especially because of the narrator's feeling of loneliness. All his friends are gone, and he knows full well that even if he makes it through the war, there won't be anyone out there he'll be able to connect with. I was reading an article about 3 American soldiers who were convicted for murder after they got back from Iraq - they weren't friends before the war, but when they got back they felt the need to be together because they couldn't relate to anyone else (they were suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrom). They started drinking and smoking pot to dull the pain but of course it only made things worst, and eventually they became violent and killed some people in the Colorado Springs area. I couldn't help but think that in the US there currently is that lost generation, young men who might never be able to lead a normal life again. It's so sad to think that no matter how many books are written, men just go on making the same mistakes over and over again...
All in all, I thought it was a fantastic novel. Very sad and disturbing, but I'm glad I read it because it's still so relevant today.
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