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Post by Carma on May 14, 2008 11:24:29 GMT -5
Too bad Italianlane, hope you'll enjoy the book some day I'm actually starting to find Mrs. Norris mean and annoying. The way she got all mad at Fanny, because she didn't want to act. (thats not a spoiler I hope?) and yes, I don't think it's Fanny's fault. But I actually didn't think that anyway.
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Post by Lucky on May 14, 2008 12:26:39 GMT -5
I am SO far behind in reading this book. I think because I wasn't enjoying it, I was reading any book but this one! So, I'm going to drop out of this discussion for this book for the time being. I know it . I'm reading this book for the second time and for the first time I really didn't enjoy it. It was about a half year ago. But now.. I don't know what happened but it hits me so much
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Lu
Administrator
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Post by Lu on May 15, 2008 12:56:29 GMT -5
While writing that I just realized that Mrs. Norris is probably the reason to blame for Fanny's passiveness. Because Mrs. Norris always reminded Fanny of how she is very fortunate, Fanny grew passive in regards to the Bertram family because she didn't feel she had the right to want anything more than what they've already been gracious enough to give her. So glad I made that connection because now I don't dislike Fanny as an Austen heroine as much because it wasn't her fault...it was Mrs. Norris'! [/font][/color][/quote] You're right Kristie. So, Mrs. Norris is to blame!
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Post by ItalianLaneGirl on May 15, 2008 17:06:00 GMT -5
Thanks for understand everyone!! I've started reading P&P and am LOVING it! he he he! Happy Discussing - MP!
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zeldafitzgerald
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
ancora imparo
Posts: 1,948
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Post by zeldafitzgerald on May 15, 2008 18:19:24 GMT -5
So I was going to finish the last few pages of this section this morning and post questions, but I overslept! I'm almost done with the section, but here's a question to start us out:
What do the ways in which the characters respond to the play and their roles in the play reveal about their personalities?
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Michelle
First novel published
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Post by Michelle on May 17, 2008 8:14:04 GMT -5
I just realized that my edition does not number the chapters consecutively the whole way through, it's broken up into three volumes. For anyone else who has an edition like mine, here's the schedule with revised chapter numbers: May 8: Volume One, Chapters 1-12 May 15: Volume One, Chapters 13-18 and Volume Two, Chapters 1-8 May 22: Volume Two, Chapters 9-13 and Volume Three, Chapters 1-4 May 29: Volume Three, Chapters 5-17 Thanks for posting that Zelda. I was very confused when I looked ahead to see where to read to. I'm still readingthe second section and like many of you I am not enjoying it as much as I thouht I would. I like mrs. Norris as a character. She's annoying and cheap and freeriding off the bertrams but I still find her interesting. I think it is interesting that Fanny is so different from Austens other heroines. I'm sort of hoping it turns into a Cinderella story because that is who Fanny reminds me of so far. And w/o Edmund I'm sure it would be much worse.
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Post by Carma on May 18, 2008 10:23:00 GMT -5
so, I haven't finished the section yet, but I'd like to say that I thought it was really funny how Mrs. Norris talked to Fanny after she was invited at the grants. She annoyed me terrible, but I had to laugh when she was saying something about people living above their rank.. I'm beginning to like Fanny even better, because she's showing more of her emotions now.. and Edmund isn't that bad in my opinion.. I'm not sure what to answer to your question Zelda... so, I'm gonna leave it open
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Lu
Administrator
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Post by Lu on May 19, 2008 7:35:22 GMT -5
That's quite a tough question, zelda I didn't know much about the play Lover's vows except what Austen herself tells in the novel, so I looked it up at wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovers%27_VowsI find interesting that both Fanny and Edmund decided to (welll, Fanny is actually forced to) act roles that are sort of similar to their role in life, Fanny a subordinate and Edmund a clergyman. As for the way they respond to the play, I think Tom and Mr. Yates are just thoughtless, they seem to be looking only for their amusement, I'm not sure about the others...I think Mr. Crawford, Julia and Maria are looking for another way to flirt, without the usual restriction imposed by their situations (esp. Maria), and I guess Mr. Rushworth would do everything Maria asks him...I've not a great opinion of him. As Carma, I'm liking Fanny better too, the way she's interested in what her uncle says about West Indies, and her asking about slavery-trade. It's not the same for Mary and Henry Crawford, especially the latter when he decides to make Fanny in love with him. Edmund is totally blind about Miss Crawford, I find funny when he says that Mary and Fanny are similar and when he's happy that their becoming friends...but I think he's not the only one, also Mrs. Grant have a better opinion of the Crafwords than what they actually deserve, I think. Oh, and I also like William Price a lot.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on May 20, 2008 15:09:44 GMT -5
I find interesting that both Fanny and Edmund decided to (welll, Fanny is actually forced to) act roles that are sort of similar to their role in life, Fanny a subordinate and Edmund a clergyman. As for the way they respond to the play, I think Tom and Mr. Yates are just thoughtless, they seem to be looking only for their amusement, I'm not sure about the others...I think Mr. Crawford, Julia and Maria are looking for another way to flirt, without the usual restriction imposed by their situations (esp. Maria), and I guess Mr. Rushworth would do everything Maria asks him...I've not a great opinion of him. This is what I think of the play as well. It is interesting that Edmund & Fanny get roles so similar to their lives. And I definitely agree about Julia, Maria, and Crawford wanting a "legitimate" reason to flirt as why they don't mind this particular play.
Just a couple more things to point out from this section:
In Chapter 2 (of Volume II) Austen states very clearly that Mr. Yates has a thing for Julia. My only question would be, where did that come from? Until Austen actually wrote that, I wouldn't have even suspected the two of them paying any attention to one another. I think it could've been more interesting to see how that romance started, even if it's just through Fanny's observations (since she's the main character). It just seemed very random that Julia and Yates were starting to like each other.
Funny quote from Mrs. Norris to Fanny: "The nonsense & folly of people's stepping out of their rank and trying to appear above themselves, makes me think it right to give you a hind, Fanny, now that you are going into company without any of us..." (p173). My response: take your own advice Mrs. Norris!
And finally, to end, a question to ponder: Do you think that Crawford would be so in love with Fanny if William hadn't visited her at Mansfield? He clearly falls completely in love with her when William arrives and she behaves in a way that no one has ever seen her before. So, if this event hadn't happened, would something else have been the catalyst of his complete love for her? Or would he remain only somewhat in love with her?
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Lu
Administrator
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Post by Lu on May 21, 2008 3:44:29 GMT -5
I agree, Mrs. Norris should definitely take her own advice! ;D
I don't think Mr. Crawford would be so in love with Fanny if William hadn't visited Mansfield...same as, I'd add, the fact that she clearly dislikes and disapproves him. Would he fall for her if she had behaved like her cousins did towards him??
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Michelle
First novel published
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Post by Michelle on May 21, 2008 14:51:01 GMT -5
I'm finally caught up (at least for a day).
Is Crawford actually in love with Fanny? I didn't think so - I thought it was still a game to him, but I think you both have read this before so I guess he probably is. I agree that it is Fanny's disinterest that is causing him to actually fall in love with her. If she had reciprocated, he probably would have just written her off.
I was impressed with Sir Thomas in this section. He's being so good to Fanny and actually putting Mrs. Norris in her place.
I'm still not liking Fanny very much. She's just so meek and not confident. Her life hasn't been the greatest, but perhaps if she acted differently, she could have changed that. I'd love to see her character develop into one that I can respect more.
At the same time, it upsets me when people are dishonest with Fanny or treat her badly. Like the Crawfords and Mrs. Norris.
I have a question. Why did Mrs. Norris want to help her sister by taking Fanny in the first place? She doesn't seem like someone who would want to take on extra work just because it would help someone else (I realize she doesn't actually have to do anything but still). Is it just that she wanted to appear to act with propriety? Or did she want someone around who was lower than her?
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on May 21, 2008 15:13:04 GMT -5
Is Crawford actually in love with Fanny? I didn't think so - I thought it was still a game to him, but I think you both have read this before so I guess he probably is. I agree that it is Fanny's disinterest that is causing him to actually fall in love with her. If she had reciprocated, he probably would have just written her off. Sorry! Didn't mean to ruin anything. I guess I just see him as being in love since I've read it before.I was impressed with Sir Thomas in this section. He's being so good to Fanny and actually putting Mrs. Norris in her place. Do you think he would be acting this way if Maria and Julia were home? I like to hope that he would, but since Julia is still unmarried, I can't help but think that he would pay more attention to her than Fanny.I have a question. Why did Mrs. Norris want to help her sister by taking Fanny in the first place? She doesn't seem like someone who would want to take on extra work just because it would help someone else (I realize she doesn't actually have to do anything but still). Is it just that she wanted to appear to act with propriety? Or did she want someone around who was lower than her? I think that Mrs. Norris wanted to feel like she did something good for someone else and that's why she wanted to help Mrs. Price. Of course, she didn't do anything but propose the idea. Even when she had the chance to take her in when Mr. Norris died, she didn't. I think that she did, in a way, want someone at Mansfield that was of lower rank than herself. It made her seem more important and she wouldn't have to sit at the foot of the table (or something like that).
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Michelle
First novel published
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Post by Michelle on May 21, 2008 15:37:17 GMT -5
No problem. I don't think the story is ruined for me. I think Sir Thomas would still be treating Fanny better even if Julia were home, but of course, his first priority would be her. But he showed his inclination toward Fanny when he first got back despite both his daughters being there (and unmarried). I think you are probably right about Mrs. Norris. It just seems out of character once we get to know her.
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