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Michelle
First novel published
Posts: 2,563
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Post by Michelle on Apr 8, 2008 19:17:20 GMT -5
I just read the two back to back for class so the comparison had to be acknowledged during our discussion. I'm actually thinking about writing my final paper on inaction and what it leads to but the idea isn't fully formed yet.
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oureternity
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
bam.
Posts: 1,568
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Post by oureternity on Apr 9, 2008 12:34:42 GMT -5
Chapter XXIX: "Think of your mother; think of her misery while you suffer; for her sake you must exert yourself" - Elinor. "...Oh! how easy for those who have no sorrow of their own to talk of exertion! Happy, happy Elinor, you cannot have an idea of what I suffer" - Marianne
1) Who do you think is right in this situation? Do you really think Elinor has to be miserable herself to understand her sister? Is she not miserable herself?
"Do not call me happy Marianne! Ah; if you knew! And can you believe me to be so while I see you so wretched!" - Elinor Marianne responds that Elinor must be happy with Edward loving her etc.
2) What is Elinor trying to say to her sister? Is Marianne so self centered and occupied by her own grief she cannot see her sister's?
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zeldafitzgerald
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
ancora imparo
Posts: 1,948
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Post by zeldafitzgerald on Apr 9, 2008 20:25:04 GMT -5
1. I do think that Elinor better understands her sister's suffering because of what she has suffered herself. I don't think a person can fully understand what heartbreak is like until they've experienced it first hand.
2. I think Marianne doesn't handle her grief as well as her sister. Not only is she naturally a more open person about her feelings, but she also lacks perspective to realize that life will go on despite her heartbreak. I think her naive views about a person only loving once in their lifetime contributes to her grief: she views her chance at happiness as being completely gone.
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oureternity
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
bam.
Posts: 1,568
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Post by oureternity on Apr 10, 2008 5:12:57 GMT -5
To answer my own questions:
1. I think that Elinor understands her sister, whether miserable or not - the advise she gives her is clearly wise and logical, only Marianne is so self-centered she can't see the sense in this advise, and moreover, she's so concentrated in her own misery she thinks Elinor happy, but she didn't really try to see the condition she was in. This quote sort of made me angry with Marianne, it shows that not only does she seek attention - but she's also very selfish.
2. Elinor is clearly vexed with Marianne's response, especially since it derives from lack of sense and knowledge. Marianne appears to make herself more miserable than she is and when Elinor tries to comfort her she throws at her these insensitive words, regardless of them being insensitive.
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Lu
Administrator
Posts: 5,469
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Post by Lu on Apr 10, 2008 10:29:05 GMT -5
6) I think that there's a lack in the representation of children, it seems like they're presented just when they're needed in the story. Still, I think the representation of them (and sometimes of their mothers) is quite realistic. As Michelle, when I first read S&S I didn't realize how mean Lucy Steele really is, now I think she tells Elinor about her secret engagement and make her part of that secret just to hurt her. Lucy herself told: "I have not known you long to be sure, personally at least, but I have known you and all your family by description a great while; ... " (chapter 22) and then "I am rather of a jelous temper too by nature, and from our different situations in life, from his being so much more in the world than me, and our continual separation, I was enough inclined for suspicion, to have found out the truth in an istant, if there had been the slightest alteration in his behaviour to me when we met, or any lowness of spirits that I could not account for, or if he had talked more of a lady than another, or seemed in any respect less happy at Longstaple than he used to be" (chapter 24). I think Edward did all those things in his visit at Longstaple. I really admire Elinor for the way she acts toward Lucy. I also found a similarity with P&P: Elinor, in her opposition on going to London with Mrs. Jennings, sort of remind me of Elizabeth Bennet, when she tries to convince her father not to let Lydia go to Brighton. 2. I think Marianne doesn't handle her grief as well as her sister. Not only is she naturally a more open person about her feelings, but she also lacks perspective to realize that life will go on despite her heartbreak. I think her naive views about a person only loving once in their lifetime contributes to her grief: she views her chance at happiness as being completely gone. I do agree.
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Post by pixie on Apr 11, 2008 10:33:58 GMT -5
i was busy the last couple of weeks that i couldn't get online and participate in the discussion but i was keeping up with the reading schedule. if you guys don't mind i would like to answer some of your questions about the previous three sections. Marianne is really passionate and i admire about her how she is confidence in her opinions, emotions and behaviors even when they are not common or admired/accepted by others. however, i think she needs to leap out of her own world a bit and get more in touch with reality. On the other hand, i think Elinor is limiting herself too much by social terms and restrictions. It's admirable to be considerate and rational but there is nothing wrong with expressing yourself and being your own person either. i think she is afraid she is going to hurt or offend someone if she expresses her emotions. however, i don't find it strange that Elinor is so sensible and rational at such a young age. i think some young people are actually like her. I relate better to Marianne. I don't mind taking risks and following my opinions and emotions even when they seem crazy to others. i always follow my heart not only in relationships but in career decisions as well which sometimes seems irrational to others. it actually makes perfect sense to me to follow what my own heart tells me rather than following what others(common sense) tell me. however, i'm quite shy therefore i don't state my opinions as strongly as Marianne does and i also don't open up about my emotions as she does. In other words, I'm like her, i act like her but my shyness prevents me from talking or publicly exposing my personality and emotions as she does. i also don't dwell on my grief and make it publicly known as Marianne. i think that would make me vulnerable, therefore i try as much as i could to govern my sad emotions as Elinor does. (I hope that made sense ;D) i disagree. i can't be with someone who is an exact copy of myself just like i can't be with someone wo is a complete opposite of myself. i think a mixture of differences and similarities makes the perfect magical spell . i think differences are ok as long as they don't prevent us from getting along, having fun together, understanding and supporting each other. sad and disturbing but very realistic i didn't watch the movie and it's the first time i read the novel but i'm gonna have to disagree. i don't like it when everything is said and known from the beginning of the novel. i like to keep guessing a bit about what the characters actually feel and think before i find out later in the novel. i don't agree with Edward. i agree with lu about shyness sometimes being because of superiority or laziness. i also agree with Isa when she said that some people just don't want to be in the spotlight. Sometimes you just don't think people's reaction or attention to what you will say is worth the trouble of expressing your opinions. sometimes there just isn't enough motive for you to speak your mind. i think that you can try to understand someone's pain or misery and succeed to an extent but you can never 100% understand or relate to them unless you had the same experience. yes, she is. and i think that if she actually saw her sister's misery it would have helped her to over come hers. she would have known that it's not the end of the world and that she shouldn't dwell on her grief but rather get herself together and move on.
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Post by pixie on Apr 11, 2008 11:07:44 GMT -5
i would also like to add a couple of questions:
*) Why do you guys think Elinor hides her feelings? Do you think she is not certain how she or Edward feel therefore doesn't want to make something she is not sure about public? Or does she think her love doesn't deserve to take that much attention or importance in her life as Marianne does? Or maybe she is actually shy about her feelings that's why she hides them? Or is it just for the sake of civility?
*) "I must have been intended by nature to be fond of low company." Edward, chapter 17 Can you relate to this quote? especailly if you fit into the "shy book person" image? is that a curse or a blessing?
*) "My feelings are not often shared, not often understood. but sometimes they are." Marianne, chapter 16 What kind of side of Marianne's personality does this quote reveal? How did that side contribute to her quick attachment and involvement with Willoughby? Can you relate to this quote?
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oureternity
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
bam.
Posts: 1,568
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Post by oureternity on Apr 11, 2008 12:55:22 GMT -5
These are great questions pixie!
1. I think Elinor's way of coping with her feelings is just different, it doesn't necessarily mean she suffers more when she keeps them inside. I'm not sure about her being certain of her feelings, I'm pretty sure she does love him, I guess you do have a point though - maybe she's the kind of girl who doesn't like to make things "formal" until they're all officially settled and declared, that's part of her sense. I do think that part of her closeness derives from patience with her sister. She's mature enough to know not to steal her sister's attention. I'm pretty sure shyness has nothing to do with it, perhaps civility, but not shyness. She's mostly careful because of the people around her - Marianne, her mother, and the rest of her surroundings.
2. I do emphasize with this quote, I myself have very few friends - most of them not even very close to me, most of my company is my family which I am very fond of. I can't say if it's bad or good in general - every person has his own ways/manners, I think I could never cope with a gigantic amount of friends, I think no one could, it's better to have low company who you're very close to rather than a lot of meaningless friends. I think the only way it could be a curse is if you have no friends or you do have friends but none who are true.. Either way, like I said, it depends on the person itself.
3. I can relate to this quote, but I don't think it's true in Marianne's case. I think she always "praises" herself. She always makes herself more miserable than she is, more sensible than she is. Maybe she feels like Willoughby understands her better than anyone else, although I think Elinor understands her best - even more than Mrs. Dashwood.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Apr 11, 2008 14:44:53 GMT -5
Chapter XXIX: "Think of your mother; think of her misery while you suffer; for her sake you must exert yourself" - Elinor. "...Oh! how easy for those who have no sorrow of their own to talk of exertion! Happy, happy Elinor, you cannot have an idea of what I suffer" - Marianne 1) Who do you think is right in this situation? Do you really think Elinor has to be miserable herself to understand her sister? Is she not miserable herself? "Do not call me happy Marianne! Ah; if you knew! And can you believe me to be so while I see you so wretched!" - ElinorMarianne responds that Elinor must be happy with Edward loving her etc. 2) What is Elinor trying to say to her sister? Is Marianne so self centered and occupied by her own grief she cannot see her sister's? 1) I know Elinore is feeling miserable, what with all of the secret information Lucy has provided her. But I don't think that she has to be miserable to understand Marianne's miserable-ness. I'm a firm believer in empathy, so everyone can put themselves in others' shoes. But I do agree that it would be easier for her to understand had she been miserable (which she is, unbeknownst to Marianne). Experience always makes it easier to feel for another going through something similar, but it isn't required.
2) I think that Marianne is incapable of seeing Elinor is not happy because Elinor hardly ever shows her own feelings outwardly. Marianne isn't looking for Elinor's emotions because they're usually lacking, but especially at this time because she has been snubbed by Willoughby and has her own problems. Elinor is trying to tell Marianne that she's not as happy as she was before, but she knows she cannot tell the secrets because they're confidential. She's almost ready to blow from keeping all of her emotions inside all the time.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Apr 11, 2008 15:05:18 GMT -5
i would also like to add a couple of questions: *) Why do you guys think Elinor hides her feelings? Do you think she is not certain how she or Edward feel therefore doesn't want to make something she is not sure about public? Or does she think her love doesn't deserve to take that much attention or importance in her life as Marianne does? Or maybe she is actually shy about her feelings that's why she hides them? Or is it just for the sake of civility? *) "I must have been intended by nature to be fond of low company." Edward, chapter 17 Can you relate to this quote? especailly if you fit into the "shy book person" image? is that a curse or a blessing? *) "My feelings are not often shared, not often understood. but sometimes they are." Marianne, chapter 16 What kind of side of Marianne's personality does this quote reveal? How did that side contribute to her quick attachment and involvement with Willoughby? Can you relate to this quote? 1) I think that Elinor feels it is best not to get her hopes up by saying her feelings aloud. If she keeps them inside, she doesn't have to deal with others saying they're sorry for her when it doesn't work out. Also, I think that she sees the extreme way Marianne allows her feelings to pour out and she doesn't want to come off as so silly. Also, specifically her feelings towards Edward are kept inside because she's old fashioned--until he professes his feelings, she has no right to assume he feels a certain way and is waiting for him to make the first move.
2) At first I read it as low like inferior, but then I read it again and I think Edward means quiet or simple company. I agree with him in that regard--I'm not a huge fan of lots of loud people around. I don't think it's a curse--since he likes it, I'm sure he means it as a compliment.
3) In this quote, I take it as Marianne thinks she's a very unique person. She claims to be a romantic--and clearly shows it--but she is hardly the only person like that. Just take Mrs. Jennings for example. I could see the young Mrs. Jennings act like Marianne and form quick attachments and not think of consequences. Of course Marianne mocks Mrs. Jennings, but perhaps if they were of similar age Marianne would see how alike they are I don't really feel misunderstood a lot of the time. Sometimes I know I act crazy because of my emotions, but I can usually figure out what's making me behave so.
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Post by pixie on Apr 13, 2008 22:42:47 GMT -5
thanks oureternity to answer my own questions: 1. I agree with Kristie. i think Elinor hides her feelings because she doesn't want to get her hopes high in case things don't go as she wishes. i also agree that she doesn't show her emotions because she thinks that will make her seem silly and maybe a bit uncivil. 2. I could relate to the quote. I'm nice to everybody and friends with a lot of people but there are a few people who really know me or who i spend most of my time with. I think it's a blessing. although i think it's important to be friendly and helpful with everybody (i hate rude people who always act as if they can't stand others ). but i also think it's better to have a good small group of friends that you are close with rather than hanging out with a different group of people every week. 3. I think this quote along with the "I don't think i will find the one for me" one are clues that Marianne is living in her own world and somehow disattaches herself from reality and from others. I think that's why she got too attached to Willoghby too quickly because he fitted in and completed her expectations/dreams. In my own opinion, I think that everybody can relate to Marianne's quote to a certain extent. I know i do sometimes. However, Marianne is exaggerating and dwelling on her feeling of not being understood rather than trying to leap out of it and fix it. Oureternity, i like your reply. i agree that Marianne tends to praise herself and it's also interesting that you mentioned that Elinor is the one who understands Marianne the most also Marianne claims that Elinor can't understand her misery.
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oureternity
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
bam.
Posts: 1,568
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Post by oureternity on Apr 15, 2008 0:35:08 GMT -5
That is so cool! Does it still look like that?
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Post by pixie on Apr 15, 2008 15:46:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the maps Kristie. They are making reading the book more fun.
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