Isa
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Post by Isa on Apr 22, 2009 16:02:43 GMT -5
Here's the schedule: May 8: Discuss chapters 1-14 May 15: Discuss chapters 15-24 May 22: Discuss chapters 25-39
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Post by Lucky on Apr 24, 2009 7:09:42 GMT -5
Great! I'm looking forward to reading it!
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Post by Dominique on May 4, 2009 0:55:50 GMT -5
I thought I'd post a few questions for this section that we might be able to talk about once discussion starts on May 8.
1. What is the symbolic importance of the lady in black and of the two lovers? These characters often appear at the same points in the novel; what is the significance of this pairing?
2. How does the text use clothing and garments (or the lack thereof) to portray Edna's rebellion against Victorian norms? 3. Explore the full implications of the various images of birds in the novel. How do the different species of birds mentioned—parrots, mockingbirds, pigeons—symbolize different ideas?
4. What do you think of Robert and his attitude towards Edna so far?
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Isa
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Post by Isa on May 8, 2009 19:59:37 GMT -5
I'll begin with some general observations - So far I think Chopin is doing an amazing job of describing how trapped certain women could feel during the Victorian era. I'm not entirely condoning Edna's attitude, but she just doesn't seem to be made for that period. In today's society, a woman who doesn't have motherly feelings and doesn't want to be trapped in a relationship is something we've more or less come to accept, but back in those days, Madame Ratignolle was the model of what a woman should be: entirely devoted to her husband and children.
I think it's also interesting how Victorian values somehow seem to turn women into hypocrits according to Chopin. Surrounded by Creoles, Edna is the only one who still thinks certain subjects (such as pregnancy) shouldn't be discussed in public. And yet, we're meant to feel that of all these women, she's the only one who could actually act in a dishonourable way - even if she's the one who blushes when someone talks about pregnancy, it's as if all those feelings she keeps bottled up will eventually result in her acting in a dishonourable manner. We find out that Robert has always "devoted himself" to a woman every summer, and it was more like a game than anything else - but as Madame Ratignolle puts it, Edna is different and doesn't quite understand that it's only a game.
The little glimpses we get into Edna's childhood are also interesting. Her dream, or memory, of the young girl running away from church, and the fact that she got married to Léonce partly out of rebellion again make us understand that she just doesn't fit in with her times. I also thought it was interesting to see Edna's struggle with her new-found independence in the last few chapters, like when she learns how to swim and ends up being scared of drowning even though she's only swam a bit out of the way, or when she decides to spend the night out in the hammock but ends up going to bed even before her husband does. But we can tell Edna is changing, through our modern eyes we might even be tempted to say she's "making progress", but we know it can only lead to her downfall...
As for question 1) to me the young lovers symbolize what Edna longs for, while the lady in black is a harsh reminder of what she should be - devoted to her husband, even after death. And as for question 4) Robert's attitude is really annoying me. It's like he's been playing this game for so long, never really having to worry about its outcomes, but now he found a woman who's actually taking the bait and he loves the new challenge. I really don't feel he's being sincere and that's why Madame Ratignolle sees right through him and asks him to leave Edna alone.
I'm glad we decided to split the novel into 3 parts, seems like there's so much to talk about!
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Post by Dominique on May 8, 2009 21:57:03 GMT -5
I agree with Isa that a really interesting aspect of the book is the way Edna isn't that motherly, something that at that time was considered wrong, whereas today people are a lot more accepting of it. I'm so glad that there are more choices available to women who feel that way in today's society. The setting by the seaside, in the heat adds a depth of sensuality to the novel that a lot of similar stories (eg Madame Bovary) really lack. I think the imagery to do with the setting was really well written. In regards to q 2. I think it could be said that the stifling heat and the sensuality of the water impacts on and alters Edna slightly. An example of this is when the female characters unbutton the tops of their dresses, which is a definate relaxation of Victorian norms. Madame Ratignolle confuses me, on the one hand she appears to be the "ideal" female, perfect wife, motherly and so on. But on the other hand the way she tells Robert that Edna is not like the two of them and to leave her alone sort of gave me the impression she has had affairs? That conversation between the two of them also seeme to suggest that Madame R thinks Edna is rather nieve. For q 1. I thought the lovers might symbolise Edna's past before she married and the lady in black her future if she continues down the same track. Or possibly that the lady in black was her future if she didn't change her circumstances and that the lovers were the ideal future that she could obtain instead. q 4. I didn't really like Robert in this section. He seems like a bit of a cad and someone who doesn't really think about the consequences of his actions. I noted too that Edna didn't really seem interested in him at all in the beginning, she even seemed to find him an annoyance. Another general observation: I think it's interesting that while Edna's changing this doesn't seem to be the result of an event of any significance, instead it just seems to be due to the sensual setting, bickering with her husband, being expected to look after her sick child and a bunch of other mundane things. In short, Mrs Pontellier was beginning to realise her position in the universe as a human being, and to recognise her relations as an individual to the world within and about her. This may seem like a ponderous weight of wisdom to descend upon the soul of a young woman of twenty-eight - perhaps more wisdom than the Holy Ghost is usually pleased to vouchsafe to any woman. But the beginning of things, of a world especially, is necessarily vague, tangled, chaotic, and exceedingly disturbing. How few of us ever emerge from such a beginning! How many souls perish in it's tumult! The voice of the sea is seductive; never ceasing, whispering, clamouring, murmuring, inviting the soul to wander for a speall in the abysses of solitudel to lose itself in mazes of inward contemplation. The vouice of the sea speaks to the soul. The touch of the sea is sensuous, enfolding the body in its soft, close embrace. This is my favourite passage from this section. I think as a woman to realise your current place in life in this time period would be incredibly disturbing. I really relate to Edna, sometimes when I'm feeling unhappy I question myself if, as a woman, I want the things I want because I want them, or because society tells me I'm supposed to want them. And are these things we're supposed to want really a type of cage? I think thoughts like that cross the minds of many women at different times in their lives and I think that because of that The Awakening is still very relevant to today's society.
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Post by Lucky on May 10, 2009 4:43:18 GMT -5
I'm really sorry, but I can't join you. My school is pretty stressful lately and I have some books that I have to read for school. Plus I have to write papers about them and I have to do it till the end of May, so I haven't much time. And I also have to do a herbal for my biology class, I've just didn't realize that I wouldn't have time to do that. My fault, I'm sorry.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on May 11, 2009 7:54:16 GMT -5
I read that part about the discussion between Madame Ratignolle and Robert in a different light: I think Madame Ratignolle, as a Creole, is used to flirting with men, knowing full well that this won't ever lead anywhere serious because Creole women are intrinsically faithful, and that's what allows them to be so comfortable around other men. When she starts to realize that Edna is dissatisfied and longing for something more, that's when she tells Robert to stay away from her, because she fears that Edna could actually fall in love with him. She does perceive Edna as being a bit naive, and I don't think she's entirely wrong about that...
I think the point you bring up about the locating making for a more sensual setting is very interesting - I did picture them always a bit hot and sweaty, and the satisfaction Edna gets when she lets the sea envelop her body is practically described as a sexual relationship! I also agree that the novel is still very relevant today. Yes, there are much more options out there for women and society in general is more accepting, but there are still certain things that are very deeply rooted into our culture. And trust me, as someone who's been married for a while and still has no kids, I feel its effects all the time!
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Post by Dominique on May 12, 2009 6:55:19 GMT -5
I think there still is a strong sentiment in some people that it is unnatural to be an unmotherly person. There's still a stigma around women who have post natal depression and stuff like that too. Women who don't show the correct emotions at times can be harshly judged, for example in the Australian "the dingo ate my baby" case the woman wasn't seen to be grieving for her child "correctly" and because of that the media turned against her and a lot of people thought her a murderer. I think sometimes people expect all women to WANT to have children, to look at a child and get clucky, and if they don't those women are often looked at as though there's something wrong with them. So I agree there's still a strong sentiment like that around in some people even today! I'm glad you agree about the setting, somehow I think it really helped make the book as good as it was. It gave it a sort of impact, reality or poetry or something that a lot of these Victorian setting novels lack. Isn't anyone else going to join in?
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Michelle
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Post by Michelle on May 12, 2009 8:25:13 GMT -5
And trust me, as someone who's been married for a while and still has no kids, I feel its effects all the time! Haha. I think my mom references the fact that she wants grandchildren soon in every conversation we have. And Ben's mom does occasionally, too. I read this a couple months ago, but I'll add a few thoughts. I don't know if I had this thought consciously, but I agree that the setting and the heat does give it that extra feeling of sensuality. I, too, imagined them to be hot and sweaty the whole time. And that kind of uncomfortable heat often leads you to be irritable - it could easily spark the restlessness that Edna feels. It's interesting because there are Victorian ideals, but she's in this Creole society where they are more relaxed (e.g., the unbuttoning of the dresses). But the gender roles aren't relaxed at all. I wonder if the relaxation of the other things as compared to the life Edna grew up in is what caused her to start thinking that maybe she could avoid these other norms. I loved this novel. I'm glad you guys are enjoying it. I wish others were reading it though because it's so good.
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Bina
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Post by Bina on May 13, 2009 7:04:07 GMT -5
I´ve read the first part, so I´ll try to join in. Although you guys have been pretty thorough so far! I agree that the setting is important in Edna´s awakening. The heat it seems, melts away the strictest of Victorian ideals. The Creoles are more relaxed when it comes to buttoning up, and also about their conversations and reading materials (where Edna joined in but could only read when by herself). I guess there´s also the whole cold= strict Victorian society and heat= loose morals and sensuality thing, if we were reading it that literally Perhaps it´s also noteworhty how Edna´s described as "more handsome than beautiful" and generally attributed more athletic and strong features rather than being portrayed as a "womanly" woman like Madame Ratignolle. And literary studies is messing with my head! When I read the part where Edna starts to swim, I could only think about the water as rebirth motif
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Isa
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Post by Isa on May 13, 2009 9:43:33 GMT -5
And literary studies is messing with my head! When I read the part where Edna starts to swim, I could only think about the water as rebirth motif Well, that's pretty much what it is so it's not messing you up to badly ;D
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Bina
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Post by Bina on May 14, 2009 11:00:33 GMT -5
And literary studies is messing with my head! When I read the part where Edna starts to swim, I could only think about the water as rebirth motif Well, that's pretty much what it is so it's not messing you up to badly ;D Yay! But I really noticed that this book has a lot of typical motifs and themes. No idea why we haven´t discussed it in uni!
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Isa
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Post by Isa on May 16, 2009 9:34:29 GMT -5
Shall we move on?
In this section, Robert leaves for Mexico and then Edna returns to New Orleans, and it's like Edna's awakening, which was slow and subtle at the beginning, is now beginning to change her life completely. She doesn't keep her emotions in check whenever Robert is mentionned: she's not afraid to question her husband relentlessly about the last time he saw Robert, no matter how unappropriate it might be. She also insists on reading Mrs. Lebrun's letter, and then Miss Reisz's. She starts giving up everything that has to do with "keeping up appearances", such as receiving people at home on Tuesdays, and starts letting the real woman in her take center stage. Although we're not really meant to feel any sympathy towards Léonce, I can't help but understand him when he starts to wonder whether Edna might be losing her mind - after all, his reaction is that of a normal man living in the 19th century...
I've got a few questions: How do you feel about Edna at this point in the story? Are you rooting for her, do you think she's being selfish...?
And do you think she'd be the same woman if she were living 100 years later?
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Bina
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Post by Bina on May 17, 2009 16:16:06 GMT -5
I could also understand Léonce a bit, after all he has no idea what has happened to Edna and has no reason to suspect that she wasn´t being herself before.
I want Edna to succeed and realize who she really is but she gets on my nerves sometimes. When her children and her husband are away, to her this oppressing feeling goes away too but to me it feels like she gets to be alone quite a bit, her children are cared for by someone and her husband comes home late. I think I´m too practical to like Edna as more than a symbol for emancipation.
But I found it interesting that she still likes Madame Ratignolle who represents everything Edna isn´t and is trying to free herself from.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on May 17, 2009 16:53:03 GMT -5
Maybe she likes spending time with Madame Ratignolle because seeing how devoted she is to her family and how she's "nothing without them", so to speak, makes it easier for Edna to realize what she doesn't want to be like and what she's moving away from. Maybe that's why she's also drawn to Miss Reisz, who's very independent. It's like it's giving her two extreme boundaries to bounce off so she can finally find her own place in the world.
At this point in the story I'm finding it difficult to really like Edna. Just like you, dorothy, my mind perceives what she is and what she represents, but I can't help thinking she's also being selfish and inconsiderate. If she were a 21st century character we probably wouldn't notice these traits quite as much because she would be free to do as she pleases, but I'm not sure she'd be someone I'd really like...
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