Isa
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Post by Isa on Apr 7, 2010 8:56:45 GMT -5
That's a good point, Carma. I'd say sometimes it feels more like a devious obsession than true love. After all, why would you want to hurt people you really love?
It's funny because the Brontë sisters hated the works of Jane Austen, they thought the characters' feelings were too subdued. But in the end, almost 200 years later, it seems like it's easier for us to feel the love and passion in Austen's novels. Perhaps that's why I'll always prefer Jane Austen, though Wuthering Heights remains one of my favourite novels of all time.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Apr 7, 2010 9:47:34 GMT -5
Isa- I can tell that Bronte wants me to feel a little sympathetic for Heathcliff, but I just can't bring myself to do it. Yes, I admire his devotion to Catherine. And I also sort of like how he got some revenge on Earnshaw, but I don't think he treats any of the other characters in a nice way. Like Hareton. And, I'm guessing from the family tree that eventually his son will live with him and when Isabella dies, as the tree says she does, I don't expect Linton will be treated well. I wonder why Heathcliff puts up such a hard facade. Maybe so he can't be taken advantage of again?
Lu- You bring up a good point about the discord between Earnshaw and Heathcliff. I'm not exactly sure why old Earnshaw favored Heathcliff. Perhaps he was just a very sympathetic/noble person? But I can see why younger Earnshaw would sort of take that out on Heathcliff. So, Earnshaw is mean to Heathcliff first, Heathcliff is mean in return, and thus begins a vicious cycle. And I agree with the love between Catherine and Heathcliff. It is one of the weirdest relationships I have ever seen. And if I hadn't started reading the story knowing that it is supposed to be a great love story, I would never have thought much of that particular relationship. No one really seems to love anyone, the way they all treat each other and act. Except, maybe, for their children? But we'll have to read farther to see how the parent-child relationships go. Anyway, I think maybe it's still too early, as well, to really get the extent of the Heathcliff-Catherine love relationship.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Apr 7, 2010 9:55:50 GMT -5
That's a good point, Carma. I'd say sometimes it feels more like a devious obsession than true love. After all, why would you want to hurt people you really love? It's funny because the Brontë sisters hated the works of Jane Austen, they thought the characters' feelings were too subdued. But in the end, almost 200 years later, it seems like it's easier for us to feel the love and passion in Austen's novels. Perhaps that's why I'll always prefer Jane Austen, though Wuthering Heights remains one of my favourite novels of all time. I didn't know the Bronte sisters hated JA's works. However, given the very different moods and styles of writing, I can definitely see that difference.
I don't find the feelings subdued in JA's works. I think they're appropriately held back, as was the custom of the time. (And holding those feelings back longer makes them stronger! "Absence makes the heart grow fonder.") Whereas JA stories are located in some sort of society, this particular Bronte work (WH) is located secluded, out on the moors. I think that makes a big difference! I mean, if you don't have much contact with the society of the time, I believe you'd be a little more "wild", to say the least. Just as Catherine, Heathcliff, and Earnshaw show themselves to be.
As for preferring the love and passion in JA's works, I have to agree. But I think that is just pretty normal. Many people prefer to read the stories with happy endings that are, for the most part, light and happy (maybe with a little tragedy in there). I prefer this to the dark and depressing stories, as this is turning out to be (I'm not saying I dislike this book, but I prefer JA as of now). I mean, I've seen a few movies that have sad endings and, even though I know that is more realistic than always having happy endings, I prefer the cheesy happy-ending movies. It's just how many people feel, I think.
One thing I do like about the Bronte sisters' works I've read so far (WH and Jane Eyre): they aren't predictable. However, I haven't read more than one book for each sister, I'm just guessing the stories won't follow the same sort of storyline (like JA).
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Apr 8, 2010 5:47:23 GMT -5
I don't find the feelings subdued in JA's works. I think they're appropriately held back, as was the custom of the time. (And holding those feelings back longer makes them stronger! "Absence makes the heart grow fonder.") Whereas JA stories are located in some sort of society, this particular Bronte work (WH) is located secluded, out on the moors. I think that makes a big difference! I mean, if you don't have much contact with the society of the time, I believe you'd be a little more "wild", to say the least. Just as Catherine, Heathcliff, and Earnshaw show themselves to be. [/font][/color][/quote] Absolutely! I think it's something we haven't brought up so far, how the characters in Wuthering Heights are a reflexion of their environment - they can be just as dark and wild as the land they grew up on. Society and social rules usually come as an afterthought, and when they do, it's often with disastrous consequences (like Catherine choosing to marry Linton).
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Lu
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Post by Lu on Apr 8, 2010 15:30:35 GMT -5
This is a very interesting discussion! You made such good points. I finished chapter 14 only yesterday, but I'm trying to catch up. As you guys, I can't bring myself to like Heathcliff, he's so cunning (even machiavellian) in seeking his revenge! I think Isa is right, at the beginning I felt sorry for him, even if Bronte occasionally showed he wasn't a good child, I felt that was justified by the way he was treated. I didn't expect Catherine and Heathcliff love to be so similar to an obsession, I can't even see his great devotion to her, apart from ruining everyone's life, he also married Isabella and Catherine didn't sound very happy about that. But maybe Carma's right and it's too early in the story. But I'm with you guys, I can't bring myself to like Heathcliff (though I know some readers admire his undying devotion for Cathy), and I don't really like Cathy either. Strange how you can still like a novel despite not liking the main characters! I know I don't like them but I still really like Wuthering Heights. I love the narrative structure, and how the characters are a reflexion of their environment, that's a new thing for me because I usually perceive that as artificial, unnatural, instead in Wuthering Heights it just makes perfect sense. As for Joseph, I have to do the same thing Kristie does, read it out loud to make some sense out of it, but it is rather hard to understand!! I do the same, it still takes me some time but at least I understand. I wish he speaks less. I didn't know Bronte sisters hated Jane Austen, I guess that explains why people tend to compare their works, even if they're so different! I think this is another one of those cases where you need to fill in the blanks Brontë left in her story. We don't exactly know what happens during that gambling match, but we somehow get the idea that it's not so much Earnshaw inviting Heathcliff as Heathcliff gaining possession of Wuthering Heights and accepting to keep Earnshaw, presumably because he's part his revenge scheme. The blanks in the story are another thing I really like of this novel, I keep wondering how Heathcliff got his money, where he spent those three years...I'm so curious!
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Lu
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Post by Lu on Apr 8, 2010 15:36:37 GMT -5
Lu- You bring up a good point about the discord between Earnshaw and Heathcliff. I'm not exactly sure why old Earnshaw favored Heathcliff. Perhaps he was just a very sympathetic/noble person? But I can see why younger Earnshaw would sort of take that out on Heathcliff. So, Earnshaw is mean to Heathcliff first, Heathcliff is mean in return, and thus begins a vicious cycle. I think it was Carma who wrote that, although I'd be happy to take the credit of a good point. ;D Also, my edition has a Reading Group Guide in the back, with about 10 questions for discussion. Since they seem to be questions focusing on the book as a whole, I'll wait til we get closer to the end to post them and we can discuss them. Sound good? Sounds great!!
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Apr 10, 2010 15:10:22 GMT -5
I'll start the next discussion section.
This section starts off with a reunion of Heathcliff and Catherine. And it seemed a very intimate reunion. Hugging and kissing, while perhaps not much right now, would have been very scandalous at the time. I know it is Nelly's duty to remain in the presence of both Heathcliff and Catherine--but she recounts nothing of any discomfiture or embarrassment. Sometimes when I even see people being intimate on TV, I look away because it seems embarrassing to continue watching. But Nelly just watched. I felt embarrassed for her
Cathy's birth/Catherine's death came very suddenly! I mean, I knew this would happen, as Cathy is in the beginning of the book and the family tree shows that Catherine died shortly after the birth. However, I thought there would be something leading up to it! I know Catherine was sick, so perhaps she didn't really know she was pregnant. Since sicknesses can affect that womanly stuff. But, even if she did know she was pregnant, would she have told anyone about it? On the other hand is Bronte just didn't include this fact--perhaps everyone did know about it, but Bronte chose to leave that information out. But why would she do that? So many questions concerning baby Cathy!!
In a way, we revisit Mr. Lockwood's nightmare upon his stay at Wuthering Heights towards the beginning of the novel. Heathcliff was having, what I would call a fit upon learning of Catherine's death. "And I pray one prayer--I repeat it till my tongue stiffens--Catherine Earnshaw, may you not rest as long as I am living! You said I killed you--haunt me, then! The murdered do haunt their murderers." This shows us why, upon hearing of Mr. Lockwood's "nightmare" he went looking for Catherine--he really thought she was a ghost and was looking for him. So maybe it wasn't a nightmare? I still think it wasn't.
Seeing Cathy as a child and then a young woman was very interesting. I kept thinking that she must have been terribly wronged when younger, which would explain her character at the beginning of the novel, the "present" Cathy. But she was one of the happiest children/young women I've ever seen. Sure, there was that little issue with "loving" Linton Heathcliff and having issues with that relationship. But that doesn't seem like it would hurt her too much. What happened? What is the catalyst of her change in demeanor?!
I'm finding this second generation of Cathy, Linton, & Hareton to resemble the first generation. Linton is Hindley Earnshaw--the true son who is better than the boy he grew up with, Heathcliff, or Hareton in this generation. Did anyone else make that connection? Heathcliff is trying to make his own son, Linton, feel superior and, had he been stronger, to make life a living hell for Hareton. Because then it is Heathcliff's son who "owns" Hindley's son, since Hindley treated Heathcliff very wrong when they were children. BUT, it also seems to me that Heathcliff wants Cathy to love Hareton, not Linton. In doing this, it shows that the "shunned" outcast (Heathcliff/Hareton) can be loved by a good woman (Catherine/Cathy) and doesn't have to step aside to the man with money (Hindley/Linton). I mean, Heathclif even says, "I can sympathize with all his [Hareton's] feelings, having felt them myself. I know what he suffers now..." I know this probably seems very confusing, but I'm trying to put some crazy thoughts into words
As far as the story at the end of this section goes, with Nelly's falling sick, I have to say that I haven't read a story with a servant treated so well as she is! That is in no way a bad thing. But how many stories have you read in which the servant is taken care of by the served when she falls sick?
While Nelly believes that Cathy didn't leave when she was sick to see Linton and even flat out denied it at some points, I definitely think that she was going over there to see him. Linton annoys me. He reminds me of Colin in The Secret Garden, the rich, pathetic wretch who can't lift a finger because he's too fragile.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Apr 11, 2010 7:25:10 GMT -5
Thanks for getting us started once again, Kristie!
I completely agree that there are many parallels to be drawn between the first and second generations. After the Edgar-Catherine-Heathcliff triangle, we now get the Linton-Cathy-Hareton one. We could even draw a parallel between 1st generation Hindley and 2nd generation Heathcliff because of the power they have over the three children, but I guess one of the main differences is that Heathcliff is incapable of hating Hareton, there's just too much of himself in that boy. He tries to put his own son in a position of power, but he despises him too much for it to really work, not to mention that Linton is too weak, both physically and psychologically, to take on such a role.
It's interesting to see that Heathcliff is doing everything he can to bring Linton and Cathy together - he knows, of course, that by getting Edgar and Catherine's daughter to marry his own son, he will be able to accomplish the ultimate act of revenge. After all these years, even after Catherine's death, revenge is still his only motivation.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Apr 11, 2010 12:03:31 GMT -5
It's interesting to see that Heathcliff is doing everything he can to bring Linton and Cathy together - he knows, of course, that by getting Edgar and Catherine's daughter to marry his own son, he will be able to accomplish the ultimate act of revenge. After all these years, even after Catherine's death, revenge is still his only motivation. I agree. Getting Cathy to marry Linton, would mean that Heathcliff would have power over her, just like Hindley had control over Heathcliff. While Catherine had control over Heathcliff, she didn't use it as much.
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Post by Carma on Apr 14, 2010 8:45:50 GMT -5
Cathy's birth/Catherine's death came very suddenly! I mean, I knew this would happen, as Cathy is in the beginning of the book and the family tree shows that Catherine died shortly after the birth. However, I thought there would be something leading up to it! I know Catherine was sick, so perhaps she didn't really know she was pregnant. Since sicknesses can affect that womanly stuff. But, even if she did know she was pregnant, would she have told anyone about it? On the other hand is Bronte just didn't include this fact--perhaps everyone did know about it, but Bronte chose to leave that information out. But why would she do that? So many questions concerning baby Cathy!!
I haven't really caught up on this section yet. But I think a bit earlier it was mentioned that there was going to be a baby. When Heathcliff came by and afterwards Catherine got really sick and Edgar had to work hard on getting her better. Somewhere in there I think it was mentioned that there was going to be a child. Even though I was really surprised it suddenly happened. And Catherine's death was very sudden. I thought there would be more of a build up in Heathcliff and Catherine's love. Cos I am still not feeling it.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Apr 17, 2010 11:08:59 GMT -5
Reading Group Guide Questions from my edition
1) To what extent do you think the setting of the novel contributes to, or informs, what takes place? Do you think the moors are a character in their own right? How do you interpret Bronte's view of nature and the landscape?
2) Discuss Emily Bronte's careful attention to a rigid timeline and the role of the novel as a sober historical document. How is this significant, particularly in light of the turbulent action within? What other contrasts within the novel strike you, and why? How are these contrasts important, and how do they play out in the novel?
3) Do you think the novel is a tale of redemption, despair, or both? Discuss the novel's meaning to you. Do you think the novel's moral content dictates one choice over the other?
4) Do you think Bronte succeeds in creating three dimensional figures in Heathcliff and Cathy, particularly given their larger-than-life metaphysical passion? Why or why not?
5) Discuss Bronte's use of twos: Wuthering Heights and Thrushcross Grange; two families, each with two children; two couples (Catherine and Edgar, and Heathcliff and Isabella); two narrators; the doubling-up of names. What is Bronte's intention here? Discuss.
6) How do Mr. Lockwood and Nelly Dean influence the story as narrators? Do you think they are completely reliable observers? What does Bronte want us to believe?
7) Discuss the role of women in Wuthering Heights. Is their depiction typical of Bronte's time, or not? Do you think Bronte's characterization of women mark her as a pioneer ahead of her time or not?
8) Who or what does Heathcliff represent in the novel? Is he a force of evil or a victim of it? How important is the role of class in the novel, particularly as it relates to Heathcliff and his life?
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Apr 19, 2010 16:08:12 GMT -5
Alright, in the last section we finally see just how evil Heathcliff really is. As a result, we also get to see how Cathy became so cool-hearted, like we saw her in the beginning of the book: Heathcliff kidnaps her! I mean, I wouldn't have put it past him to kidnap Cathy and Nelly, as he did, but it still surprised me just a little bit. It's no wonder Cathy loathes Heathcliff.
As I mentioned towards the beginning of the book, I thought that Catherine was a little crazy. You know, before she died. But I think I changed my mind--she seems almost perfectly sane when taking into consideration Heathcliff's last days/weeks. I was really surprised to find that he went crazy. He was so harsh and cold-hearted that I thought he'd go out fighting. But instead, Cathy and Nelly were able to escape from Wuthering Heights before he even died because he went nuts. Now, his might have been a quieter crazy than Catherine's. But Catherine seemed more bipolar than crazy, if Heathcliff is the example of crazy.
As I was reading, a question arose: Had Heathcliff not had Linton, what would he have done to take revenge out on Cathy? Would he have just kidnapped her and forced her to be a servant or something like that? Would he have tried to get Linton to lose his property, as he had done with Hindley? (This would've been harder because Linton wasn't a drunk like Hindley.) But what do you guys think? I'm going with the kidnapped-servant idea...
One funny thing: "I wish you would repeat Chevy Chase as you did yesterday..." (p.370, Ch. 31) I just laughed out loud when I saw Chevy Chase
I am glad that the story sort of had a happy ending amidst all of the dark and dreary happenings that led up to it. I didn't really see how it could end happily, but that's because I assumed Heathcliff would be alive til the end and would keep everyone miserable.
I really ended up enjoying this book, despite my misgivings towards the beginning. I really like how the tone and mood were present throughout.
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Post by Carma on Apr 20, 2010 10:32:06 GMT -5
As I mentioned towards the beginning of the book, I thought that Catherine was a little crazy. You know, before she died. But I think I changed my mind--she seems almost perfectly sane when taking into consideration Heathcliff's last days/weeks. I was really surprised to find that he went crazy. He was so harsh and cold-hearted that I thought he'd go out fighting. But instead, Cathy and Nelly were able to escape from Wuthering Heights before he even died because he went nuts. Now, his might have been a quieter crazy than Catherine's. But Catherine seemed more bipolar than crazy, if Heathcliff is the example of crazy. I agree with you on that. I hadn't expected him to get to the end crazy. I though maybe the others who he'd been taking revenge on had found a way to kill him. Or maybe some kind of illness, not some kind of crazies... I don't know if he would've done something... maybe he would've tried to marry Catherine (the young one). But maybe he would've just let it be? Haha, when I read that I was like: Huh? Whats Chevy Chase doing in here!? [/font][/color][/quote] I also really enjoyed the book. And I'm happy about the way it ended. Catherine and Hareton seem to be really happy. I was a bit confused about when Mr. Lockwood came back. Since that was more than a year later, and I thought he was only going to keep the place till september? I thought it was a bit contrived to have him get back to Wuthering Heights in the end. And that Nelly tells him the rest of the story... But I guess there was no other way to wrap up the story, since Nelly is the narrator. There's one question you posted from your book Kristie, that I'd like to discuss: I think Nelly Dean influences the story a whole lot. We only get to know about these characters through her eyes. She also seems to be everywhere, which does make it a bit hard to believe (for me). If Emily bronte had chosen a different viewpoint for the story, if she had chosen.. heathcliff as the narrator, I think the story would've been completely different.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Apr 22, 2010 13:59:39 GMT -5
It's funny, after reading Kristie's question as to what Heathcliff would have done had Linton not been born, I was thinking the same thing as Carma - I would not put it past him to seduce young Catherine himself. It might seem unbelievable for us since we loathe him as a character, but we have to remember that he had no problems whatsoever seducing Isabella...
I also love the ending of Wuthering Heights. It's as though after taking us down through dark and darker corridors, Brontë finally shines a light by allowing Hareton and Catherine to fall in love. Even Heathcliff can't find the strength to fight this love at that point, it's as though he recognizes that no matter how hard he tries to destroy all happiness around him, good will always triumph over evil in the end.
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