Lu
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Post by Lu on Mar 30, 2010 16:05:26 GMT -5
Thanks, Kristie!! Wuthering Heights is no War & Peace but a family tree is going to be helpful! I'm enjoying Wuthering Heights so far. I read a few chapters 10 years ago, it was an italian edition I'd borrowed from library, I put it down after the 2nd chapter and I couldn't get myself to continue reading it. I'm very glad I give it another try because it's good and now I can say that I was right in blaming the translation! I think Mr. Lockwood is an odd kind of unsocial person! It looks like he's eager to befriend everyone there, I can understand his first visit at Wuthering Heights, but his second one sounds weird to me..I see it is important for the story though. The part of the nightmare was in an extract I read at school, in English Lit class, I remember it clearly because it's quite gothic AND because our teacher gave us to discuss if we thought it was real or a nightmare and why. At the time I thought it was real, mainly for the Catherine-ghost saying "it's twenty years", something that Mr. Lockwood couldn't know, but I'm not so sure now. Everytime I read "Wuthering Heights", it's like I see dark clouds and can hear the wind blowing and the thunder rolling in the distance. I have the same impression, I guess it helped that the night I started reading Wuthering Heights wind was blowing for real. No snow storm, luckily. And another thing that's different from an Austen novel is the beginning. Whereas Jane Austen tends to jump right into the action, Emily Brontë takes the time to set the mood of the novel. So perhaps at first the novel doesn't seem as interesting, but as you read on you realize that what she did in those first few pages leaves a dark impression that lasts until the very end of the novel. I see that difference. Generally I like Jane Austen's jumping into action better. I do think that the first chapters of Wuthering Heights made me appreciate Mrs Dean narration more, I felt as curious and impatient as Mr. Lockwood to listen to her. I really like how Emily Bronte uses different narrators, so far I think that Mrs Dean sounds like the most credible one. Also the part of Catherine's diary was interesting, it was nice to have a brief look at the story from her point of view.
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Post by Dominique on Mar 30, 2010 21:18:59 GMT -5
Since I’m reading Wuthering Heights for the second time I don’t seem to have made as many notes as if I was approaching it fresh. Like others have mentioned Mr Lockwood’s narration isn’t as interesting as Mrs Dean's, but I still like the way he’s used in the structure of the story. Like Mr Lockwood the reader is confused at first by these strange, hostile characters and their ambiguous family connections and motivations, and the meaning of the three Catherines etched into the wall: Catherine Earnshaw, Catherine Heathcliff and Catherine Linton. Initially he goes so far as to attribute Heathcliff’s lack of manners to sensitive reserve, before soon realising they’re an indication of his bad nature. I’ve always liked the structure of Wuthering Heights, the way it starts in the present, delves into the past and then continues on again. Everytime I read "Wuthering Heights", it's like I see dark clouds and can hear the wind blowing and the thunder rolling in the distance. I have the same impression, I guess it helped that the night I started reading Wuthering Heights wind was blowing for real. No snow storm, luckily. And another thing that's different from an Austen novel is the beginning. Whereas Jane Austen tends to jump right into the action, Emily Brontë takes the time to set the mood of the novel. So perhaps at first the novel doesn't seem as interesting, but as you read on you realize that what she did in those first few pages leaves a dark impression that lasts until the very end of the novel. I see that difference. Generally I like Jane Austen's jumping into action better. I love the gothic setting and tense atmosphere Bronte creates. I've enjoyed a lot of Austen's works, but when it comes down to the Austen vs Bronte debate I think I land on the Bronte side. It does take awhile to get into the novel though, I lent a copy to my friend last year and she couldn't get past the Mr Lockwood narrated section.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Apr 1, 2010 18:18:43 GMT -5
I agree that the mood of the novel is very vampireish, or perhaps gothic would be the right word here. Everytime I read "Wuthering Heights", it's like I see dark clouds and can hear the wind blowing and the thunder rolling in the distance. Quite different from a light and happy Jane Austen novel! And another thing that's different from an Austen novel is the beginning. Whereas Jane Austen tends to jump right into the action, Emily Brontë takes the time to set the mood of the novel. So perhaps at first the novel doesn't seem as interesting, but as you read on you realize that what she did in those first few pages leaves a dark impression that lasts until the very end of the novel. I was a little bored at the beginning of the novel, perhaps because of this mood-building. I'm not really used to reading books that have such a strong mood throughout the novel, therefore I'm definitely not used to that taking up time at the beginning of the book. But once the story started, it got really interesting
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Apr 1, 2010 18:23:00 GMT -5
The part of the nightmare was in an extract I read at school, in English Lit class, I remember it clearly because it's quite gothic AND because our teacher gave us to discuss if we thought it was real or a nightmare and why. At the time I thought it was real, mainly for the Catherine-ghost saying "it's twenty years", something that Mr. Lockwood couldn't know, but I'm not so sure now. When I read it, I did not think it was a nightmare--I thought it was real. Especially since I already knew Catherine was dead, but didn't know the circumstances surrounding her death. I think we tend to think of more gruesome/tragic deaths to have a ghostly result. And I could see how Catherine might died somehow like that, for instance getting lost out on the moors. (I have no idea if that is how she dies, but I'm thinking it was something like that right now.) So I can definitely see how that could have been something interesting to discuss in an English class. I sort of still think it was real, even if he says it was a nightmare.
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Lu
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Post by Lu on Apr 2, 2010 15:23:55 GMT -5
I love the gothic setting and tense atmosphere Bronte creates. I've enjoyed a lot of Austen's works, but when it comes down to the Austen vs Bronte debate I think I land on the Bronte side. It does take awhile to get into the novel though, I lent a copy to my friend last year and she couldn't get past the Mr Lockwood narrated section. I couldn't get past that part either the first time, but this time I've appreciated more the role of Mr Lockwood's narration. Hope your friend will give Wuthering Heights another try some day. The part of the nightmare was in an extract I read at school, in English Lit class, I remember it clearly because it's quite gothic AND because our teacher gave us to discuss if we thought it was real or a nightmare and why. At the time I thought it was real, mainly for the Catherine-ghost saying "it's twenty years", something that Mr. Lockwood couldn't know, but I'm not so sure now. When I read it, I did not think it was a nightmare--I thought it was real. Especially since I already knew Catherine was dead, but didn't know the circumstances surrounding her death. I think we tend to think of more gruesome/tragic deaths to have a ghostly result. And I could see how Catherine might died somehow like that, for instance getting lost out on the moors. (I have no idea if that is how she dies, but I'm thinking it was something like that right now.) So I can definitely see how that could have been something interesting to discuss in an English class. I sort of still think it was real, even if he says it was a nightmare. That's interesting, I don't know how Catherine dies either, it might be something like that.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Apr 5, 2010 9:33:59 GMT -5
Alright, I'll put up the first post for the second section of Wuthering Heights.
To begin with, I'd like to mention that I enjoyed this section more than the first. As I already mentioned, I am not used to an author building up a mood in the story as much as Bronte did here. So I was a little bored at the very beginning. As this section focuses primarily on Nelly's narrative, it was much more interesting, I found.
"It would degrade me to marry Heathcliff now; so he shall never know how I love him..." *~*PRIDE & PREJUDICE SPOILER*~* This is a quote from Catherine to Nelly. I just wanted to put it in here because it reminded me so much of Darcy's first proposal to Lizzie. You know, saying how she's beneath him, but he loves her anyway. However, Cathering was not telling this to Heathcliff, so it is a little different.*~*END SPOILER*~*
I found it very funny that Catherine was trying to justify marrying Linton by saying that she could then, using Linton's wealth, help Heathcliff. How can someone think that marrying another person to help your true love is a good idea?! It won't last long and you won't be happy, especially if your true love is Heathcliff and he's never really grateful for anything.
When Heathcliff finally reappeared in the story (Chapter 10), he went back to visit Catherine. I wondered what your opinions were as to his motives for going back to visit her. I kept thinking, "Did he go back to show how he changed?" because she liked him well enough before he left. "Did he come back to show Catherine he was good enough for her?" is another possibility! I mean, he might not have returned to specifically marry Isabella and make Catherine jealous or something of that sort. But to get his revenge on Linton and sort of also Catherine--he could have come back for this. There are whole stories based on revenge of this sort, Count of Monte Cristo (my favorite book), for example
I'm a little confused as to why Earnshaw would invite Heathcliff to Wuthering Heights. I have gathered that Heathcliff has taken advantage of Earnshaw and got much of his fortune, possibly even the estate, through gambling. But what could have possessed Earnshaw to invite a man who had been his mortal enemy to his home? Aside from being mentally unstable...
In Chapter 14, Heathcliff talks to Nelly about how he can manage to get to Thruscross Grange to meet with Catherine without Linton knowing. Heathcliff told Nelly that he would never have forbidden Catherine from meeting with Linton if it is what she had really wanted, had Heathcliff and Linton been in opposite places. I think that we often think of true love being as long as so-and-so is happy, even if it's without me, then it's a good thing. This is sort of what Heathcliff is saying--even though he doesn't like Linton, if it made Catherine happy to be with him sometimes, it was good. So, contrariwise, Linton must not have truly loved Catherine, if he made her miserable.
While that whole conversation is going on, Isabella is present. And my thought is, "How can she honestly think that Heathcliff loves her more than Catherine?" Isabella is in denial that Heathcliff doesn't really love her, saying he is a lying fiend. I've never actually seen this sort of denial in a real relationship, so I don't know how prevalent it really is. Are there really people out there who believe their significant other loves them if they have practically gone out of their way to make sure they never treat you that way? I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I guess that just might be some of my niavete
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Apr 5, 2010 15:21:58 GMT -5
As if my original post wasn't long enough I forgot to add something!!
What is it with the Bronte sisters and their crazy women?! We obviously have Catherine, who is somewhat mentally unstable to say the least, in Wuthering Heights. We also have a deranged woman in Jane Eyre (will say nothing else about that, to not spoil it). I haven't yet read anything by Anne, but I can't help but wonder if there will be another crazy person
Also, my edition has a Reading Group Guide in the back, with about 10 questions for discussion. Since they seem to be questions focusing on the book as a whole, I'll wait til we get closer to the end to post them and we can discuss them. Sound good?
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Apr 6, 2010 8:20:26 GMT -5
Thanks for starting up the discussion Kristie, you bring up some really interesting points! I found it very funny that Catherine was trying to justify marrying Linton by saying that she could then, using Linton's wealth, help Heathcliff. How can someone think that marrying another person to help your true love is a good idea?! It won't last long and you won't be happy, especially if your true love is Heathcliff and he's never really grateful for anything. I've always thought it was interesting to see how in the end, social conventions force Catherine to accept Linton's proposal. So far in the story, the characters are miles away from, say, Jane Austen's more polished and socially acceptable characters - it's almost as though they come from an entirely different era; yet, when it comes time to marry Catherine realizes that the 19th century code of conduct does not allow her to marry her true love, and so she settles for Linton instead. When she says she might be able to use Linton's health to help Heathcliff, I really think she's only trying to justify her choice and convince herself that she's doing the right thing. When Heathcliff finally reappeared in the story (Chapter 10), he went back to visit Catherine. I wondered what your opinions were as to his motives for going back to visit her. I kept thinking, "Did he go back to show how he changed?" because she liked him well enough before he left. "Did he come back to show Catherine he was good enough for her?" is another possibility! I mean, he might not have returned to specifically marry Isabella and make Catherine jealous or something of that sort. But to get his revenge on Linton and sort of also Catherine--he could have come back for this. There are whole stories based on revenge of this sort, Count of Monte Cristo (my favorite book), for example I do think that Heathcliff goes back to see Catherine purely out of revenge. We're not quite sure what he did when he disappeared, that entire part is left out of the story, but I think he spent most of that time thinking about ways to shatter Catherine and Linton's happiness, and it begins by his taking an interest in Isabella. I'm a little confused as to why Earnshaw would invite Heathcliff to Wuthering Heights. I have gathered that Heathcliff has taken advantage of Earnshaw and got much of his fortune, possibly even the estate, through gambling. But what could have possessed Earnshaw to invite a man who had been his mortal enemy to his home? Aside from being mentally unstable... I think this is another one of those cases where you need to fill in the blanks Brontë left in her story. We don't exactly know what happens during that gambling match, but we somehow get the idea that it's not so much Earnshaw inviting Heathcliff as Heathcliff gaining possession of Wuthering Heights and accepting to keep Earnshaw, presumably because he's part his revenge scheme. In Chapter 14, Heathcliff talks to Nelly about how he can manage to get to Thruscross Grange to meet with Catherine without Linton knowing. Heathcliff told Nelly that he would never have forbidden Catherine from meeting with Linton if it is what she had really wanted, had Heathcliff and Linton been in opposite places. I think that we often think of true love being as long as so-and-so is happy, even if it's without me, then it's a good thing. This is sort of what Heathcliff is saying--even though he doesn't like Linton, if it made Catherine happy to be with him sometimes, it was good. So, contrariwise, Linton must not have truly loved Catherine, if he made her miserable. I think this is Heathcliff being at his most manipulative and cunning. He has never accepted Catherine choosing Linton over him and he's doing everything he can to destroy their peace of mind, so for him to say he would have allowed Catherine to see Linton had the roles been reversed is ludicrous. Yes, Linton is a bit of a coward, but I do think his decision stems mostly from wanting to protect his family from the monster Heathcliff seems to have become. Of course, the way Heathcliff treats Isabella after they elope together shows that Linton was right all along. While that whole conversation is going on, Isabella is present. And my thought is, "How can she honestly think that Heathcliff loves her more than Catherine?" Isabella is in denial that Heathcliff doesn't really love her, saying he is a lying fiend. I've never actually seen this sort of denial in a real relationship, so I don't know how prevalent it really is. Are there really people out there who believe their significant other loves them if they have practically gone out of their way to make sure they never treat you that way? I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I guess that just might be some of my niavete Unfortunately, I have often seen this sort of denial in real relationships. Isabella might have an idea that Heathcliff is in love with Catherine, but Catherine already being married, she hopes Heathcliff will be happy to settle for second best and will eventually learn to love her the way he loves Catherine. It's sad, but it's probably more common than you'd think, especially back in those days when women had to marry (think about Charlotte and Mr. Collins for example). Oh, and it would be great if you could post the study questions at the end of our discussion!
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Post by Carma on Apr 6, 2010 9:08:18 GMT -5
Ugh, I hate Heathcliff. I wonder if we ever find out something nice about him. He's just ruining peoples lives because he wants to take revenge, I feel bad for all of them. Except for Catherine, cos I don't like her either. I also think Heathcliff came back for revenge. He was somehow able to build something up for himself (maybe through gambling? Just like he's done with Earnshaw?) And maybe he just wanted to show Catherine that he did well for himself and that she made a mistake... I'm not sure why Earnshaw invited Heathcliff into his house at first. It seems like a weird thing to do. Or maybe Heathcliff came with a proposal for a gamble match. That Heathcliff would leave forever if Earnshaw won , but if Earnshaw lost, Heathcliff would.. I don't know... win some money? They are a bunch of crazies though! Also, my edition of the book has whatever Joseph says in dialect, so I honestly have no idea whatever Joseph is talking about. It's kind of annoying. I hope he isn't saying any important things.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Apr 6, 2010 15:09:12 GMT -5
But Heathcliff knows, I think at least deep down, that Catherine loves him and not Linton. So does he really want to shatter her "happiness" if he knows she doesn't really like Linton?
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Apr 6, 2010 15:14:15 GMT -5
I think this is Heathcliff being at his most manipulative and cunning. He has never accepted Catherine choosing Linton over him and he's doing everything he can to destroy their peace of mind, so for him to say he would have allowed Catherine to see Linton had the roles been reversed is ludicrous. Yes, Linton is a bit of a coward, but I do think his decision stems mostly from wanting to protect his family from the monster Heathcliff seems to have become. Of course, the way Heathcliff treats Isabella after they elope together shows that Linton was right all along. Yes, Linton was definitely right about Heathcliff. It definitely makes sense that Heathcliff would not have ended up allowing Catherine to see Linton if the roles had been reversed. As the saying goes, "Easier said than done!"
And, Isa, I hadn't thought of that P&P reference with Charlotte and Mr. Collins. It definitely is similar to Isabella and Heathcliff, as an example of someone settling. I understand women's roles were very different at the time of this story and JA's writings. I just have never experienced it, so I don't know how much it really exists
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Apr 6, 2010 15:20:14 GMT -5
Ugh, I hate Heathcliff. I wonder if we ever find out something nice about him. He's just ruining peoples lives because he wants to take revenge, I feel bad for all of them. Except for Catherine, cos I don't like her either. I also think Heathcliff came back for revenge. He was somehow able to build something up for himself (maybe through gambling? Just like he's done with Earnshaw?) And maybe he just wanted to show Catherine that he did well for himself and that she made a mistake... I'm not sure why Earnshaw invited Heathcliff into his house at first. It seems like a weird thing to do. Or maybe Heathcliff came with a proposal for a gamble match. That Heathcliff would leave forever if Earnshaw won , but if Earnshaw lost, Heathcliff would.. I don't know... win some money? They are a bunch of crazies though! Also, my edition of the book has whatever Joseph says in dialect, so I honestly have no idea whatever Joseph is talking about. It's kind of annoying. I hope he isn't saying any important things. In this case, with Heathcliff, I am not happy at all with his actions. He is taking revenge in a way that really ruins people's lives. But I find it so odd because, as I already mentioned, Count of Monte Cristo is my favorite book and Edmund (main character) has been wronged much more than what Heathcliff has. But yet, I am happy that Edmund is taking out his revenge. Maybe because he was wronged more, I feel he has more of a right to mess up people's lives (more lives in number than in Wuthering Heights). It could also be just the way the authors present the characters--Bronte doesn't seem to want us to like Heathcliff at all, while Dumas wants us to feel sympathy for Edmund.
Your idea of how Heathcliff got into Wuthering Heights is a good one! I hadn't thought that maybe Earnshaw was tricked into inviting Heathcliff in. What you say completely fits with the rest of the story, so that's probably what I'll picture now
As for Joseph, if I can read it aloud, it makes it much easier to understand what he says. However, English is my first language so that has to make it easier on me than you, Lu. Sometimes I just skip what he says because I don't want to bother with trying to figure out what he's saying. And Hareton speaks like Joseph too, sometimes.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Apr 6, 2010 19:39:29 GMT -5
But Heathcliff knows, I think at least deep down, that Catherine loves him and not Linton. So does he really want to shatter her "happiness" if he knows she doesn't really like Linton? You're right, he probably knows that she and Linton can't be very happy together. I should have written "destroy their lives" instead - what I meant is that he's out for revenge, big time!
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Apr 6, 2010 19:46:19 GMT -5
Ugh, I hate Heathcliff. I wonder if we ever find out something nice about him. He's just ruining peoples lives because he wants to take revenge, I feel bad for all of them. Except for Catherine, cos I don't like her either. I also think Heathcliff came back for revenge. He was somehow able to build something up for himself (maybe through gambling? Just like he's done with Earnshaw?) And maybe he just wanted to show Catherine that he did well for himself and that she made a mistake... I'm not sure why Earnshaw invited Heathcliff into his house at first. It seems like a weird thing to do. Or maybe Heathcliff came with a proposal for a gamble match. That Heathcliff would leave forever if Earnshaw won , but if Earnshaw lost, Heathcliff would.. I don't know... win some money? They are a bunch of crazies though! Also, my edition of the book has whatever Joseph says in dialect, so I honestly have no idea whatever Joseph is talking about. It's kind of annoying. I hope he isn't saying any important things. In this case, with Heathcliff, I am not happy at all with his actions. He is taking revenge in a way that really ruins people's lives. But I find it so odd because, as I already mentioned, Count of Monte Cristo is my favorite book and Edmund (main character) has been wronged much more than what Heathcliff has. But yet, I am happy that Edmund is taking out his revenge. Maybe because he was wronged more, I feel he has more of a right to mess up people's lives (more lives in number than in Wuthering Heights). It could also be just the way the authors present the characters--Bronte doesn't seem to want us to like Heathcliff at all, while Dumas wants us to feel sympathy for Edmund.
Your idea of how Heathcliff got into Wuthering Heights is a good one! I hadn't thought that maybe Earnshaw was tricked into inviting Heathcliff in. What you say completely fits with the rest of the story, so that's probably what I'll picture now
As for Joseph, if I can read it aloud, it makes it much easier to understand what he says. However, English is my first language so that has to make it easier on me than you, Lu. Sometimes I just skip what he says because I don't want to bother with trying to figure out what he's saying. And Hareton speaks like Joseph too, sometimes.I guess we're meant to feel some sympathy towards Heathcliff for the way he's been treated as a child and then for how he got rejected by his one true love - at least, I think that's how Brontë would have wanted us to feel, like we can't really hate him because he only acts out of love for Cathy. But I'm with you guys, I can't bring myself to like Heathcliff (though I know some readers admire his undying devotion for Cathy), and I don't really like Cathy either. Strange how you can still like a novel despite not liking the main characters! As for Joseph, I have to do the same thing Kristie does, read it out loud to make some sense out of it, but it is rather hard to understand!!
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Post by Carma on Apr 7, 2010 7:47:00 GMT -5
In this case, with Heathcliff, I am not happy at all with his actions. He is taking revenge in a way that really ruins people's lives. But I find it so odd because, as I already mentioned, Count of Monte Cristo is my favorite book and Edmund (main character) has been wronged much more than what Heathcliff has. But yet, I am happy that Edmund is taking out his revenge. Maybe because he was wronged more, I feel he has more of a right to mess up people's lives (more lives in number than in Wuthering Heights). It could also be just the way the authors present the characters--Bronte doesn't seem to want us to like Heathcliff at all, while Dumas wants us to feel sympathy for Edmund. I guess we're meant to feel some sympathy towards Heathcliff for the way he's been treated as a child and then for how he got rejected by his one true love - at least, I think that's how Brontë would have wanted us to feel, like we can't really hate him because he only acts out of love for Cathy. But I'm with you guys, I can't bring myself to like Heathcliff (though I know some readers admire his undying devotion for Cathy), and I don't really like Cathy either. Strange how you can still like a novel despite not liking the main characters! I did feel bad for Heathcliff in the beginning. But I also get why Earnshaw was so mean to him. His dad seemed to prefer Heathcliff over Earnshaw. So he got jealous. And the way Heathcliff acted with the horses? He was very manipulative at that young age. So I think the way he was treated helped to create him the way he is.... but I get the idea that he was bad from the beginning. I don't really feel the love that Heathcliff feels for Catherine though. I mean, it doesn't come across as some epic lovestory. But maybe it's still too early in the story?
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