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Lu
Administrator
Posts: 5,469
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Post by Lu on Apr 16, 2008 2:47:01 GMT -5
Thanks for the map!
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Apr 16, 2008 12:02:45 GMT -5
Alright, I'm finally starting the discussion on Chapters 31-40.
At the end of Chapter 31, I noticed there was a lot of love & loss in this novel. I have a question, but it will give away the ending for anyone who hasn't read it yet so we can discuss it when we're finished. Just think about the "love & lost" idea when reading the rest of the novel.
I have begun to think John Dashwood is really just silly. I think that by "complaining" of all his expenses, he just reminds anyone who can hear him that he already has a lot and wants more. If he's not doing this intentionally then he's very stupid to not notice what he's doing.
Mrs. Ferrars reminds me a little of Lady Catherine and her daughter Anne rolled into one person: proud and superior (Lady Catherine), yet sickly (Anne). I don't like her, as does Elinor, and I think that Lucy is just looking for the good in her so much, in hopes that she will accept her that she can be satisfied with her.
I love the scene where Edward visits Elinor and Lucy is with them. Elinor acts so sly, behaving as she would normally before she learned of the engagement. She's sneakier than I remember her being in my first reading of this book And I like her all the more for it. She sort of wants to remind Edward what he'll be missing when he marries Lucy.
I want to add that I really like the scene in the 1995 film where Mrs. Jennings reveals the engagement to Elinor and Marianne. I think Emma Thompson did a wonderful job of showing the emotions Elinor was feeling at the time--trying to keep them in, as is normal with Elinor, but letting some break free.
If I didn't know any better, I would still think Elinor and Brandon like each other. In a rare scene in Chapter 39, when Brandon asks Elinor to inform Edward of the living at Delaford, the narration is from Mrs. Jennings' perspective. She, too, thinks they're acting in a way that would seem an attachment, just like any person who didn't know about Edward would think--if I can take the liberty to assume so much.
Alright, I don't really have any questions. I have two that are deep thinking questions, but they give the end away and therefore I must wait another week.
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Lu
Administrator
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Post by Lu on Apr 19, 2008 4:11:39 GMT -5
I'm a bit late, I've finished chapter 40 last night. As you Kristie, I've begun to think John Dashwood isn't bad but just silly, I can't say the same of her wife though. I also felt a sort of parallel with Miss Steele and Lucy there, I think the former is just silly (and funny sometimes) but mostly means well, unlike her sister who isn't silly at all but very mean! I had the impression Lucy wrote that letter to Elinor in chapter 38 just because Nancy told her she had spoken to Elinor at Kensington Garden and what she had said her. I like that scene in chapter 39 and the following deception between Mrs. Jennings and Elinor...it's funny I love the scene where Edward visits Elinor and Lucy is with them. Elinor acts so sly, behaving as she would normally before she learned of the engagement. She's sneakier than I remember her being in my first reading of this book And I like her all the more for it. She sort of wants to remind Edward what he'll be missing when he marries Lucy. I love how Elinor acts there in the best way possible, I think!
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Post by pixie on Apr 21, 2008 12:11:47 GMT -5
I have to say that my admiration for Elinor grew enormously after reading these ten chapters. The manners in which she handles every situation after the other are very impressive.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Apr 21, 2008 15:34:22 GMT -5
I noticed with the posts for the fourth section that not many people were contributing to the discussion. Are we, in general, running behind? Do you want to move at least this last section further on in the week so we have time to discuss it fully? Let me know!
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oureternity
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
bam.
Posts: 1,568
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Post by oureternity on Apr 21, 2008 21:28:06 GMT -5
I finished the book about two days ago but it does seem like some people are behind, lol. Maybe we should move it a bit further.
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annak
Collection of short stories published by an independent editor
Posts: 632
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Post by annak on Apr 22, 2008 2:31:27 GMT -5
I agree with Pixie, I love Elinor more and more as the book progresses. Every time I've read this book, I've never identified with Marianne. I just find her so flighty and over dramatic.
What character do you guys find yourself siding with?
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Lu
Administrator
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Post by Lu on Apr 22, 2008 7:30:46 GMT -5
Elinor. I like Marianne too but I just can't identify with her. I finished S&S yesterday but it's ok to move the last section further.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Apr 22, 2008 14:07:01 GMT -5
I have it finished as well. How about we wait until Thursday and let anyone behind catch up? It can't hurt waiting...
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Post by pixie on Apr 22, 2008 15:51:39 GMT -5
I finished the book but i don't mind waiting either. i'm ready whenever you guys wanna start the discussion.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Apr 25, 2008 14:58:05 GMT -5
Alright, I think we can start discussing the last section now. I don't have my book with me, but I remember a couple of questions I had before in chapters 31 & 32 that I couldn't ask until the very end.
1) There is a lot of love & loss in this novel. Brandon loved Eliza and lost her. Marianne loved Willoughby and lost him. Lucy loved Edward and lost him (or threw him away). Elinor loved Edward and won. And Brandon loved Marianne and won (eventually). Throughout the whole novel, Elinor & Edward are the only couple whose attachments are reciprocated and unbroken. Yes, Edward was going to keep his promise to Lucy, but we know that it was only because of duty and not love. While Brandon loved Marianne throughout the whole novel, he often went unresponded to by her. So why did Austen allow only Elinor and Edward's love to triumph over the rest? Why did no one else get the happy ending they began the novel (more or less) wanting?
2) It seems that Marianne is beginning to pay more attention to Colonel Brandon, perhaps even liking him more. Basically my question is this: Why do Marianne's feelings for Brandon change? She's a romantic and he's done nothing gallant to save her, aside from the incident at Cleveland where he carried her to safety. Is it just that incident that changes her feelings? I never get the feeling that Marianne loves Brandon truly. It never appears that she has much love toward him, especially because she was so forward with her feelings for Willoughby.
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oureternity
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
bam.
Posts: 1,568
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Post by oureternity on Apr 26, 2008 3:27:23 GMT -5
1) There could be several possible answers to this question, and the first one that comes up to my mind is that Austen herself felt more dedicated to the character of Elinor. I can't help relating Elinor to Anne Elliot from Persuasion - I felt that in a sense, Austen tried to create both Anne and Elinor like herself: delicate and sensible women, while Anne's sister, surprisingly remind me of Marianne. In both of the books I got the sense that Austen created two sisters, one more reserved while the other more extrovert . Also in both Persuasion and S&S it felt like the other sensitive and extrovert sisters were more common with the men. Marianne was busy with her affairs all day - she was a very romantic and emotional person, maybe this is partly why her relationship with Willoughby didn't last too long. Like every emotional person, Marianne maybe needed the excitement and re-newing of affairs and that is why she left the Willoughby's case and moved on to Brandon. Unlike Marianne, Elinor the sensible one is more likely to reserve a relationship better even though more difficult. I think that whether Elinor had been in the same situation as Marianne she would have handled it much differently. To sum up the first reason in a more clear way - I couldn't help noticing how Austen always kind of "praises" her sensible characters, I felt like she was more respectable about Elinor -- as if while writing about a sensible person as her she herself became more sensible. Maybe she wanted to show how relationships among sensible girls last longer than among sensitive girls.
The second reason (it might sound kind of silly!) that came up to my mind randomly is that Austen just wanted some kind of variety in her novel - it's boring to know that everyone got their happy endings, so she kept her happy ending - after all it's a classic, but not entirely.
I gotta go now so I'll answer the second question later. These ones really kept me thinking, great questions Kristie!
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Michelle
First novel published
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Post by Michelle on Apr 26, 2008 8:49:33 GMT -5
I'm sorry guys (esp Kristie) for not being around more to join in the conversation. Here are my quick thoughts on your latest questions.
(1) I think that Austen was rewarding Elinor's sense more than Marianne's sensibility. It wasn't until Marianne looked at things with a little more rational thought and less emotion that she found Col. Brandon. I'm not sure why Elinor gets rewarded though because I think she should have fought more for Edward - and I don't really think Edward is the best catch. He didn't love her enough to fight for her (forget duty - this is a Jane Austen novel and love should win over duty). I think I've said this before but I don't like Edward. And I'm glad that Marianne at least gets the better life even if it is with her second choice.
(2) I think it's just that Marianne grows up over the course of the novel. She has a horrible experience and she learns from it. I think that when Brandon saved her that was the turning point but it was also the devotion he showed her that she was finally able to appreciate.
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oureternity
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
bam.
Posts: 1,568
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Post by oureternity on Apr 27, 2008 11:24:20 GMT -5
2) I agree with Michelle. I think that Marianne's second relationship with Brandon is a clear testimony to her grown up. Like any average "teenage" girl's first love - Marianne was over heels in love with Willoughby. I think a lot of people were in this silly crazy relationship when they were only 'amateurs' in the love field, and were willing to give their whole just for this one person, just to be with him 24/7 and share this new and unrecognized closeness between a couple. I think that Marianne's relationship with Willoughby could somewhat be described like this - she experienced it all until her heart was broken. After "experiencing" and getting hurt, especially in Marianne's case, Willoughby was a great loss to her - one becomes wiser and learns to be more careful. Maybe this is what happened between Marianne and brandon - she became more skeptical towards him, so she wouldn't fall so madly in love with him like before, and become blind to where it's all leading.
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