Lu
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Post by Lu on Mar 27, 2008 7:50:43 GMT -5
What do you think of Marianne and Elinor so far? Which one do you better relate to? I like Marianne as a character but I'm quite the opposite of her and I do prefer Elinor. She's also the one I can relate better to because I'm more like her (I'm more on the "sense side" ;D ) and I think I'd act almost like Elinor did, in her same situation. 1) I do not completely agree with Marianne. As Michelle and Isa, I like healty debate and I think they're good in a relationship, but there are some basic values that I'd like his views to be similar to mine. I think I'd find boring a man who shares all my interests and whose opinions coincide with mine in EVERY point, probably I'd also think he's fake. Anyway I'm not in love so mine are very theoric thoughts ;D 2) I don't know...I never thought about that before...perhaps because Colonel Brandon is in love with Marianne...and Elinor with Edward. Elinor clearly highly (and with good reasons) respect him but I don't think her feelings would be different, I agree with Tabitha. Mrs. John Dashwood is so annoying! IThroughout that whole conversation, I was getting frustrated to the point of actually yelling out loud, haha. same here! I don't think they got what Mr. Dashwood actually meant...
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zeldafitzgerald
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
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Post by zeldafitzgerald on Mar 30, 2008 8:39:22 GMT -5
I can relate to both Elinor and Marianne. I think I've had similar views as each of them during my life, particularly Marianne when I was younger and Elinor now that I'm a bit older. It's amazing to me that Elinor has so much sense at only 19, and without much life experience with men and love.
Answers to Kristie's questions: 1-I think a couple must have many things in common to succeed over time, but I disagree that they should have everything in common. I think the most important things to agree on are lifestyle preferences, such as: having kids; how much they want to travel; opinions/habits regarding drugs, smoking, and alcohol; etc. When it comes to interests, having several in common is good, but variety is fun. Sometimes it can expose you to things you never knew you liked too!
2-While reading, I thought that Elinor should be with Colonel Brandon. Especially since (to me) there was not enough romance detailed to us about Edward and Elinor. I could see no strong attachment. I'm watching the 1995 movie version right now, and one thing I love about it is how good of a job they do showing the attachment and love between Edward and Elinor. (The movie really creeped me out at first though, because Emma Thompson was 36 when she played Elinor! It was so weird to me, isn't Elinor 19!?)
Also, thanks for the map Kristie! That was very helpful.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Mar 30, 2008 13:32:36 GMT -5
I agree with you Emily, about there being no strong attachment between Elinor and Edward in the book. I really wouldn't think they liked each other much more than friends if I hadn't read the novel already. And I love the 1995 S&S movie for showing more attachment between the two, especially the disappointment in Edward when the family was moving to Barton.
I also thought it weird how much older than 19 and almost 17 Elinor and Marianne are portrayed in the movie, as far as actresses go. I love Emma Thompson and Kate Winslet, but I think some younger actresses could've led more reliability into the film.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Mar 31, 2008 9:44:47 GMT -5
Well, Kate Winslet was only 19 when they shot Sense & Sensibility, so I thought she fit the part of Marianne. But yes, Emma Thompson - even though I really like her - did not look anywhere near 19 years old! But she did write the screenplay so I guess it makes sense that they would let her play Elinor, and since they don't mention how old she is in the movie, people who hadn't read the novel probably just thought she was a much older sister.
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Michelle
First novel published
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Post by Michelle on Mar 31, 2008 10:37:41 GMT -5
I agree about the Edward/Elinor attachment. The movie was much better at showing it. I actually just don't like Edward very much and I think part of the reason might be because I didn't really see how much he cared for Elinor at the beginning.
It kind of made sense to make Elinor older in the movie because she is supposed to have more self-command so making her much older than Marianne works.
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oureternity
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
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Post by oureternity on Mar 31, 2008 15:44:55 GMT -5
I thought the second part (Chapters 10-20) was great! The plot developed so beautifully!
First of all I underlined all the sentences that I liked and that showed really the relationship between Marianne and Elinor, and their being the Sense and Sensibility.
As for the situation between Marianne and Willoughby, I thought it showed really in a bold way the wise between the two sisters - Marianne was lost in her grief while Elinor became skeptic. "She played over every favorite song that she had been used to play to Willoughby, every air in which their voices had been oftenest joined, and sat at the instrument gazing on every line of music that he had written out for her, till her heart was so heavy that no farther sadness could be gained; and this nourishment of grief was every day applied"
So everyone realized that Marianne is very sensitive - in this particular situation she expresses her sensitivity, she really lets her emotions flow and bursts into tears constantly - while her mother and Elinor try somewhat to calm her - Elinor tries to balance her with her sense, while Mrs. Dashwood is being more pitiful. Another thing I realized was that Marianne isn't only sensitive but very emotional. Elinor said so in chapter XVII to Edward - "I should hardly call her a lively girl; she is very earnest, very eager in all she does... but she is not often really merry". At first I somewhat felt more connected to Marianne, Elinor seemed rather tough - but in time I learned to really appreciate Elinor's sense. The part when Edward came riding on a horse and Marianne insisted on it being her lover while Elinor tried to persuade her otherwise: Marianne, being naive, sensitive and emotional - somewhat makes her seem like a child, while Elinor guards her, protects her, and tries to make her see beyond her precious world. Also, I won't quote but there was a part when Marianne told Elinor that she thought everyone were guided by other people - it shows that Marianne has no opinion of her own while Elinor is a much stronger independent woman.
What do you guys thing of Mrs. Dashwood? What do you think of her comfort comparing to Elinor's?
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Mar 31, 2008 17:48:07 GMT -5
What do you guys thing of Mrs. Dashwood? What do you think of her comfort comparing to Elinor's?
I think that Mrs. Dashwood is a good parent compared to some of the other parents Austen writes. She does care about Marianne, but constantly allows her to get away with things that she shouldn't be able to do--Mrs. Dashwood could've restrained Marianne's personality a bit more, but I think she is a good parent nevertheless.
To add some questions to this:
3) What do you think of the different views on expressing love that Marianne and Elinor have? Do they compare in aspects to your own? (Look at the paragraph in Chapter 16 where Marianne is describing Elinor and Edward's actions upon meeting again.)
4) "I love to be reminded of the past, Edward--whether it be melancholy or gay..." Marianne (Ch17) -Do you agree? Do you like thinking of bad things along with the good?
5) "Shyness is only the effect of a sense of inferiority in some way or other." Edward (Ch17) -Do you agree? Are you shy or outgoing?
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Mar 31, 2008 18:11:01 GMT -5
To answer those questions:
3) I think that I have more of a Marianne view of expressing love. I like for people to know that I'm in love with Nick, but I'm not crazy. I guess Marianne's actions can be sort of like people making out in public nowadays. In that respect, I'm very different. I think that love should be shown physically to others, but not to that extent. I like Elinor's reserve, but I'm just not able to restrain myself so far as to not let anyone know about it.
4) I don't believe in regretting things, so I don't mind remembering the bad things that have happened in the past. I just tell myself that if those bad things didn't happen, I might not be as happy now as I am. Of course I don't like dwelling on bad things, but I can take them along with the good.
5) I definitely do not agree with Edward's statement about shyness. I am a shy person, but it's not because I feel inferior to anyone. I'm just not a person who easily lets people know me. I know I'm sort of a different person--I mean not many people love reading and old music like Frank Sinatra like me--so I don't put myself out. It's not that I feel inferior to people or necessarily dread them snickering or making fun of me--it's just that I know I'm not in the group of mainstream college students lol
Now to discuss a couple points I've thought about. First, I'm noticing many similarities between S&S and P&P: 1) Marianne is silly like Mrs. Bennet, but not quite so annoying, and they both don't care and/or realize that other people gossip about them for it. ***SPOILER OF S&S AND P&P***2) Colonel Brandon and Mr. Darcy are very similar heroes. They both have mysterious business to attend to in town which have similar significance (although they're definitely different things). Both of these visits help them attain their women in the long run--Darcy gets Lizzie because he saved her family's name and Brandon helps to get Marianne because he finds Willoughby's illegitimate child which makes her less attached than she already is at the time she learns it. ***SPOILER*** 3) Mr. Palmer's situation is very similar to Charlotte Lucas'. Both married annoyingly loud and silly spouses. While we know Charlotte married because it might've been her only chance, we're not sure why Mr. Palmer married Charlotte Jennings. I think we can safely assume it was forced upon him in some way--maybe he was a second son or a less wealthy first son or his parents made him.
"Most unwilling was she (Elinor) to awaken from such a dream of felicity to comprehend all the unhappy truths which attended the affair..." I want to point out that Elinor has it very hard as being the only sensible one in her family. It must stink to be the "bearer of bad news", the "rain on the parade", and you get the idea. I know I would feel depressed if I had to be the pessimist and tell everyone how it is. What's even worse is she has to try to explain why certain things are bad/wrong to people (Marianne and sometimes Mrs. Dashwood) who will never understand.
Is anyone else surprised that Marianne didn't elope with Willoughby? She's clearly in love with Willoughby and acts like Lydia in P&P. Or do you think that Marianne has more sense than to do something that rash?
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oureternity
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Post by oureternity on Apr 1, 2008 6:22:56 GMT -5
3) I think I'm somewhere in the middle, Marianne takes it to another level - when Willoughby left everyone knew immediately her grief, I think that f I was in her shoes people would have seen me as sadder than usual, but to an extent. However Elinor reserves her feelings inside, what might seem like a wise choice, but again, to an extent.
4) "I love to be reminded of the past, Edward--whether it be melancholy or gay..." Marianne (Ch17) I myself underlined this sentence! I thought it was a very nice one. I like to be reminded of the past too - whether bad or good, I have no definite explanation why I like the bad along the good, but it makes me have this nostalgic feeling inside my head that makes me miss my past (especially my childhood). In addition, maybe this connects somehow to what I said before -- about Marianne's emotionality.
5) "Shyness is only the effect of a sense of inferiority in some way or other." Edward (Ch17) I agree in a way. People who are shy often feel inferior to others, afraid of what they will think of them, or afraid of exposing themselves. I'm shy in front of people I'm not well acquainted with, or with people who I am inferior to - like teachers and such. But around my friends and family I think I am being myself most of the time.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Apr 1, 2008 7:35:20 GMT -5
I agree about the Edward/Elinor attachment. The movie was much better at showing it. I actually just don't like Edward very much and I think part of the reason might be because I didn't really see how much he cared for Elinor at the beginning. I agree, I think they did a great job in the movie casting Hugh Grant to play the part of Edward because he made him much more lovable than in the book. That's actually the main reason why S&S is my least favorite Austen novel, I don't care much for the character of Edward and the way he treats Elinor. I agree with Kristie that even if she has some flaws, Mrs. Dashwood is one of the best parents Austen created. I think she lets Marianne get away with some stuff because she's very much like her. The way she too falls for Willoughby, I can totally picture Mrs. Dashwood being a very sentimental girl when she was young. It might also explain why Elinor is so mature - as the eldest daughter, she probably grew up feeling it was her duty somehow to make up for her mother's sensitivity. I'll be back later to answer the other questions
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Apr 1, 2008 8:10:12 GMT -5
Great questions, Kristie! 3) Again, because the sisters are at such extremes, I think I fall somewhere in between, but perhaps closer to Elinor. At the start of a new relationship, I wasn't one to fall head over heels, I'd usually try to take things slow and see where things were going because I didn't want to get hurt. And I'd like to think that once Edward and Elinor get married, she won't necessarily keep all her feelings to herself anymore 4) That's a tough one for me to answer. If bad stuff has happened in the past but it doesn't bother me anymore, then I don't mind thinking about it and even laughing at it. But if it's still painful, I'd rather not dwell on it too much. I'm not surprised that Marianne would though - she's so hooked on feelings that anything that would bring tears to her eyes would be worth thinking about, lol! 5) I can understand why Edward would say that, but I can't agree with it. Some people just don't like being in the spotlight, and it doesn't come from a sense of inferiority. I actually think that a lot of people who come across as not being shy at all are only trying to make up for the fact that they have no self-confidence. Think about your typical class clown, they'll often be the first to say they started making jokes because they were very shy and it was their only way of communicating with people. Kristie, I think you're right, Mr. Palmer's union with Charlotte Jennings most probably was a marriage of circumstances. Austen really liked the idea of marrying someone for love, so she often introduces these examples of "marriage of reason" that fail miserably! As for Marianne's possible elopement with Willoughby, I think the main difference between her and Lydia is that Marianne actually does care about her family and could not bring herself to cause them that much pain, no matter how in love she was. She's a little foolish, to be sure, but she's not selfish like Lydia.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Apr 1, 2008 14:06:01 GMT -5
3) Again, because the sisters are at such extremes, I think I fall somewhere in between, but perhaps closer to Elinor. At the start of a new relationship, I wasn't one to fall head over heels, I'd usually try to take things slow and see where things were going because I didn't want to get hurt. And I'd like to think that once Edward and Elinor get married, she won't necessarily keep all her feelings to herself anymore --- Kristie, I think you're right, Mr. Palmer's union with Charlotte Jennings most probably was a marriage of circumstances. Austen really liked the idea of marrying someone for love, so she often introduces these examples of "marriage of reason" that fail miserably! --- As for Marianne's possible elopement with Willoughby, I think the main difference between her and Lydia is that Marianne actually does care about her family and could not bring herself to cause them that much pain, no matter how in love she was. She's a little foolish, to be sure, but she's not selfish like Lydia. I agree with you about not wanting to fall head over heels at the get-go. When I started dating Nick, I'd loved him for so long before (huge crush) and had dated a couple guys before and I didn't want to set myself up for miserable feelings if it didn't work out.
The way you put it, about the marriages Austen creates, is exactly what I think! You're so good with words
As for Marianne eloping, I think it's only when she's acting foolish around him that I'm surprise she hasn't run off with him. I agree that she's not selfish like Lydia, but it's just at some points in the book she seems just as silly.
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Lu
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Post by Lu on Apr 5, 2008 8:47:28 GMT -5
3) I am a lot like Elinor, very reserve and I tend not to show much my feelings, I've been sometimes told that's not a good way to act (not only by Charlotte Lucas in Pride & Prejudice ..) I think it's better being somewhere between them. 4) I think it generally depends the things, I have to say I'm not very happy to be reminded of my faults or my mistakes but I generally don't mind remind of bad things too. 5) I don't agree, I'm a shy person but I know I'm not feeling inferior to anyone, sometimes a bit superior instead...haha. ;D I don't know why I am shy, I just don't easily open to people and let them know me...maybe it's more lazyness than a feeling of inferiority. Is anyone else surprised that Marianne didn't elope with Willoughby? She's clearly in love with Willoughby and acts like Lydia in P&P. Or do you think that Marianne has more sense than to do something that rash? I agree with Isa, I think Marianne loves her mother and sisters too much to do such a selfish thing, she has more sense that Lydia! For those who saw a S&S movie, do the way some characters are portrait in the movies influenced your opinion of them? I've just realized that I find Mr. Palmer very funny after I saw the movie, I remember I thought he was quite annoying the first time I read the book.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Apr 7, 2008 14:48:00 GMT -5
Alright, I don't have very much about this section because a lot of it dealt with what would happen between Marianne and Willoughby and I already knew what would happen.
Towards the beginning of the section, Austen writes a little about the Middleton children and how the Steele sisters act towards them. I think it's interesting that Austen seldom wrote about children and how they behaved/were treated during this time period. We see a bit of children in Mansfield Park because it starts when Fanny is a child and we see a bit of children in Persuasion, with Mary's son. But I suppose the children seem to be the same nowadays--loud and all over the place 6) What do you think about Austen's representation of children--or lack thereof--in her books?
I find that Lucy Steele is much more conniving in the book than the 1995 film. Because of Sir John & Mrs. Jennings flaunting the attachment between Edward & Elinor and because Edward reported directly to her about Elinor and the Dashwood women, Lucy suspects a hint of truth in the attachment. Therefore, she knows very well that what she confides in Elinor will likely gnaw away at her because she cannot do anything about it. Lucy even claims that she knows Elinor to be trustworthy enough to confide this in, but she clearly does not need to tell her this secret--neither gains from it. I do, however, give a thumbs up to Elinor for not taking all that sitting down. Elinor sort of fights over Edward with Lucy--the two women clearly do not like each other. And because of their fight over him, we finally see Elinor's true feelings toward Edward--she has pretty much masked them up until this point. Isn't it interesting that we always know where Marianne's feelings lie and Elinor's feelings are always masked, yet the perspective is from Elinor?
I don't really have any questions about quotes for this section. There is a quote that I want to point out for you to think about while reading the rest of the book (I'm not sure when exactly section-wise it will be relevant): "I love him too well to be the selfish means of robbing him, perhaps, of all that his mother might give him if he married to please her." ~Lucy (Ch 24) When certain events unfold, we will see how Lucy's statement stands the test of time...
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Michelle
First novel published
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Post by Michelle on Apr 7, 2008 15:37:06 GMT -5
Childhood as we know it wasn't really invented (discovered?) yet. Children were just little adults and not really paid much attention to. So I think she reflects that idea. And also, I believe that Austen did not have much experience with children so maybe she just didn't want to write about what she didn't know.
As for Lucy Steele - I can't stand her. On my second reading, I realized just how conniving and mean she really is. The first time through I thought she was just dumb, but really she is smart and knows exactly what she is doing. And as much as Elinor can take her on in a verbal match, I wish that she would actually take some action to show that she loves Edward. She's kind of like Hamlet - she can outwit people in conversation but hesitates when she actually has to do something.
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