Isa
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Post by Isa on Feb 20, 2008 15:46:09 GMT -5
- the Morlands (NA) have many children, but I don't recall the specifics and they are the poorest family Austen creates
- the Bennets (P&P) have five daughters
- the Dashwoods (S&S) have three, and are fine until their father dies
- the Elliots have three, and Sir Walter is squandering their money
- the Bertrams (MP) have two (plus Fanny)
- Emma Woodhouse (Emma), only daughter/child, is best off
Actually, Fanny (MP) has seven brothers and sisters, but your point still works Kristie because the Prices are by far the poorest of all the families Austen has created. And it does make sense that having more daughters would bring about more money problems. There were some professions that a gentleman's son could take up (lawyer, clergyman, officer...), but a gentleman's daughter simply could not be expected to work. It then fell to her father to provide her with a sum that would be sufficient enough to induce a man into matrimony, which could be quite problematic when you had five daughters to marry off!
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Feb 20, 2008 17:18:44 GMT -5
And it's not so much that daughters are harder to take care of because they can't work, but Austen sort of purposefully gave more daughters to the men who made less. Like, if she had put the 5 Bennets with Mr. Woodhouse, they wouldn't have been as bad off, but she put them with parents who couldn't provide as well for them. I just think it's interesting how she gave the lower gentlemen the most daughters, making it even more of a struggle to marry them off (since that is a main theme of hers).
O, and I know that Fanny's family was the worst off, but since the majority of the story takes place at the Bertram estate, I just left it at that lol
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Feb 20, 2008 17:26:13 GMT -5
Hey, you're right Kriste! I never realized that! In both Manfield Park and Persuasion there three daughetrs, the only difference is the social condition of their family (if I remember correctly...I read Manfield Park ages ago and I really need a rereading). I haven't finished part one yet (i'm just at chapter 9), but I post something anyway. Persuasion is my second favorite Jane Austen, I read it a number of times and I always enjoy it a lot. I've started reading the introduction (but then I've stopped) and it mentions the recurring role of "persuasion" in the story, which, it says, "explores the painful consequence of apparently sound advice given by a good friend". I've always thought that "Persuasion" refers only to Lady Russell persuading Anne but apparently I was a bit wrong. I payed more attention to it and so far there are other "persuasion": Anne hopes Lady Russell manages to persuade her father to accept the retrenchments they've marked out, Mr. Shepherd is persuaded that a change of abode is necessary and Anne herself is often being given the role of persuader when she's staying at Uppercross (probably because she's the one everyone trust in). I'm recognizing more of the persuading aspects of the novel this time around as well. For instance, I took it upon myself to count the times persuade/persuaded/persuasion as a word is used, and it's 14 times (so far). That's not counting the "influences" and "dissuades" either. I found, "I have always heard of Lady Russell, as a woman of the greatest influence with every body! I always look upon her as able to persuade a person to any thing!" (p69 in my book, Ch 12) and I think it sort of made me really realize why the title is Persuasion. That sentence itself doesn't show the significance of the title since it comes up in many other instances. Every time Mary bids Anne do something is technically persuasion since Anne is always reluctant at first to do it. She's so easily persuadable.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Feb 20, 2008 17:35:31 GMT -5
Yeah, makes sense Austen obviously wrote about what she knew - she was pretty much in that position herself, being the daughter of a clergyman who, without being poor, didn't have much of a personnal fortune. I think it was one of the reasons why Tom Lefroy's family made sure to remove him from Hampshire when they found out he seemed to like Jane. Her novels afforded her the possibility to come up with the ideal solution: her poor heroines always end up receiving a proposal from a wealthy man who doesn't need them to bring any supplementary income Oh and for your other two questions, Kristie: I do think it was customary to let your house completely furnished. As for Anne's trip to Lyme, I think it simply happened before the end of her visit at Uppercross, before they expected her to leave for Mrs. Russell's, and that's why she made the trip with the rest of the family.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Feb 20, 2008 17:57:57 GMT -5
Me again!
I agree with you Kristie, that even though it's really frustrating, it's still possible to see how Mrs. Russell really was trying to do what was best for Anne when she persuaded her to break off her engagement to Captain Wentworth. And you're right lu, there's all sorts of persuasion taking place in the novel, and the words "persuasion" and "persuaded" keep popping up. Of course, Louisa's declaration that she should not be persuaded to do anything against her will is also very important as it seems to set her above Anne at that point in the story. I very much like the way Louisa Musgrove is portrayed - I guess she could be seen as Anne's rival, but she's such a nice girl that we can't really blame her for liking Captain Wentworth too!
It's funny how Sir Walter and Marry are such caricatures and yet Anne is perhaps Austen's most realistic heroine ever. As much as I love Elizabeth Bennett and would like to be like her, I'm probably more like Anne because she's such a romantic, sweet but flawed character. And while she may not always have the wittiest retorts, the way she takes care of Mary's family is pretty impressive! And the way her feelings for Captain Wentworth are described, it all seems so true! I also had some problems with Captain Wentworth being so cold towards Anne in the beginning, but then I realized that it was most probably because he was still angry at her, and you can't be this angry at someone unless you still have feelings for that person.
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zeldafitzgerald
Collection of short stories bought by Random House
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Post by zeldafitzgerald on Feb 20, 2008 20:17:13 GMT -5
Yay! Posting day! First of all, this is only my second Austen novel (first was P&P) and I'm LOVING it! I can't put it down. Fortunately I'm only a tiny bit past Chapter 12, so I wont get too mixed up while posting.
Here are some thoughts to what others have said so far:
RE: Why Anne went to Lyme I think Isa may be right, that it was just expected of her. But while reading so far, I'm getting the sense that Anne is not as ready to move on as she thinks she is. She recognizes her feelings well, and the need for her to completely unattach Captain Wentworth from any special thoughts, but I think deep down she doesn't want to.
RE: Last line of chapter 3 I completely agree! This line was so intriguing.
RE: Anne's opinion not being taken seriously by her father or Elizabeth I think this is especially interesting when you compare it to Elizabeth Bennett. Elizabeth Bennett's father holds her opinion in high regard, and thinks she is the most sensible of all the daughters. However, when it really mattered, he didn't take her advice about letting Lydia go off to Brighton. So in the two Jane Austen books I've read so far, the heroine's advice in important matters isn't taken seriously by the father, regardless of how sensible the father views his daughter.
A side note: I got really confused at the end of chapter 7. Anne was fretting over Captain Wentworth saying that she was "so altered that he should not have known her again." All of a sudden, it switched to Captain Wentworth's point of view. I was not expecting this at all, and I couldn't tell if it was actually him, or just Anne imagining what he must be thinking. That's the only thing that has given me trouble so far.
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Lu
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Post by Lu on Feb 22, 2008 8:55:32 GMT -5
Another small question I have is, were all homes that were rented out furnished at this time? Sir Walter sort of worried about his possessions and Shepherd said the Crofts would take care of the furniture and paintings, but were all let houses furnished? I can't recall for sure, but I believe Netherfield was furnished, to an extent, in P&P. Just wondered if anyone knew. Perhaps houses were all rented out furnished because moving furniture was less easy than it is nowadays. I agree with you Kristie, that even though it's really frustrating, it's still possible to see how Mrs. Russell really was trying to do what was best for Anne when she persuaded her to break off her engagement to Captain Wentworth. And you're right lu, there's all sorts of persuasion taking place in the novel, and the words "persuasion" and "persuaded" keep popping up. Of course, Louisa's declaration that she should not be persuaded to do anything against her will is also very important as it seems to set her above Anne at that point in the story. I very much like the way Louisa Musgrove is portrayed - I guess she could be seen as Anne's rival, but she's such a nice girl that we can't really blame her for liking Captain Wentworth too!. I like the way she's portrayed as well, I really can't feel her like a rival and dislike her, even before the accident occurring her. I finished part one yesterday. I totally forgot about the Crofts, I really like them, they're so nice, a wonderful married couple! I always feel like they deserve to live in a beautiful house, as Kellynch Hall is, better than Sir Walter (and I think Anne herself says that somewhere in the book). The Crofts sort of remind me of the Gardiners of Pride & Prejudice.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Feb 22, 2008 10:03:16 GMT -5
That's right lu, they do remind me of the Gardiners! I guess Austen felt it was important now and then to include a couple you could look up to in her novels Most of the parents portrayed in her novels have severe flaws, and you can't help but wonder if she was passing judgement on her own parents. Her mom was described as being a bit of a hypochondriac, which is a theme that comes up in all her novels (in this case it's Mary), and her father was said to be a kind man but he wasn't too involved in his daughter's life...
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Post by Carma on Feb 22, 2008 12:54:35 GMT -5
I haven't finished part one yet.. but doesn't Jane Austen begin (almost) every book with a broad description of someone lives, and she starts focusing on a certain character, and then later on you get pulled into the story of the main character.. At least, thats what I think... I'm not sure if I'm remembering it all correctly.. and maybe this is an obvious thing or something...
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Post by bookaddict on Feb 22, 2008 15:11:13 GMT -5
I finished the novel, and it was great!! As for Part One: When I found out about the financial difficulties of Sir Walter, I really thought that Anne would handle everything well. I thought this because of Lady Russell's trust in her, she was the only one who consulted Anne. Honestly I thought this would play out more in the novel, but really all it did was change their setting. The characters hardly seemed bothered or troubled by the "difficulties." we hear about it occasionally, but that's it. Perhaps it really wasn't an issue, but you'd think that during this time appearances was almost everything. I was aching for Anne when she sees Captain Wentworth again, and she's wondering who he will fall in love with. She's looking at his interactions with Louisa and Henrietta and wondering who he will end up with, that's excruciating to watch. I really believe that Austen writes in a way that we can feel her pain. She wants to spend lots of time with him, but she also believes that he must hate her. She's caught in his social circle and doesn't know what to do. She wants to hide, but she also wants him to notice her. I felt this was really real and relatable for a reader. My favorite character besides Anne is Mary....why? because all she does is complain. I think her character is humorous. She's sick, until she can go out. She's in pain until there's a part. It's obvious she wants attention. If anyone is hurt around her she's in hysterics and people have to tend to her as well. I found it horrible when her son is hurt, and she decides to go to a party because she feels like Anne is a better nurturer. I really enjoyed her character.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Feb 22, 2008 16:57:29 GMT -5
lol, you're right bookaddict, Mary is a funny albeit slightly annoying character. She's clearly there for comic relief, and I think Austen is really good at creating these characters (Mr. Collins anyone?!). I also agree with what you say about Anne and Captain Wentworth. As for Sir Walter's financial difficulties, I think it was Lady Russell who said that in Bath he could be important at a relatively low price, or something like that, and it does seem to work for them. Anne is the only one who really feels the impact of leaving Kellynch Hall - her mother's home -behind; Sir Walter and Elizabeth seem quite happy to go to Bath since they can keep on spending money, having servants and what not. They could have stayed at Kellynch had they been more careful with money, but obviously that wasn't an option for them...
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Feb 22, 2008 17:36:04 GMT -5
That's right lu, they do remind me of the Gardiners! I guess Austen felt it was important now and then to include a couple you could look up to in her novels Most of the parents portrayed in her novels have severe flaws, and you can't help but wonder if she was passing judgement on her own parents. Her mom was described as being a bit of a hypochondriac, which is a theme that comes up in all her novels (in this case it's Mary), and her father was said to be a kind man but he wasn't too involved in his daughter's life... I realized the Gardiners were similar to the Crofts as well, Lu It is nice that some people can be happy when married.
Isa, I also picked up on Mary's hypochondria, but I thought about it for a while and decided it was more of a attention-seeking thing. She clearly didn't see herself as being sick when she wanted to do something and hypochondriacs are "sick" like they have a real illness, not an illness of whim. (I think Mrs. Bennet is more hypochondriac than Mary.)
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Feb 22, 2008 17:39:29 GMT -5
lol, you're right bookaddict, Mary is a funny albeit slightly annoying character. She's clearly there for comic relief, and I think Austen is really good at creating these characters (Mr. Collins anyone?!). Haha Austen is amazing at making some truly annoying characters. I also think that it's interesting because, when reading, you can just tell how loud characters like Mary and Mr. Collins are. It's sometimes hard to write loud, but Austen can do it
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Michelle
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Post by Michelle on Feb 22, 2008 22:58:18 GMT -5
I just finished Part 1 and I am too tired to write much and I feel like everything above has been adequately responded to. But I am enjoying the book very much and I can't wait to see what happens. I really like Anne's character - although I think she may overthink things a little bit.
A couple parts I found extra humorous:
I liked the part when Anne gets a ride with the Crofts and they first imply that they are fat (something like "if we were all built like you we could fit four or five") and then she compares their driving to their lifestyle. I think you probably can tell a lot about someone by the way they drive.
I also found it funny when Mr. Elliot "checks out" Anne and Captain Wentworth sort of calls her out on it. It seems like something that would happen nowadays. Ben always informs me when guys check me out and so will most of my male friends.
I realize these are not very intellectual observations, but I think they show off Austen's famous wit...
BTW, has anyone see The Lakehouse - they talk about this book a lot in it.
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Lu
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Post by Lu on Feb 23, 2008 9:10:15 GMT -5
I saw The Lake House, I got quite confused with the timeline but I liked it. lol, you're right bookaddict, Mary is a funny albeit slightly annoying character. She's clearly there for comic relief, and I think Austen is really good at creating these characters (Mr. Collins anyone?!). Haha Austen is amazing at making some truly annoying characters. I also think that it's interesting because, when reading, you can just tell how loud characters like Mary and Mr. Collins are. It's sometimes hard to write loud, but Austen can do it Yeah, she's absolutely great at creating such characters!
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