Lu
Administrator
Posts: 5,469
|
Post by Lu on Jan 15, 2009 8:10:31 GMT -5
Here you go, lu: Books 1 & 2: Chapters 1 to 14 (so you're right on schedule ) Book 3: Chapters 15 to 42 Books 4 & 5: Chapters 43 to 56 Thank you!!
|
|
Lu
Administrator
Posts: 5,469
|
Post by Lu on Jan 15, 2009 8:38:07 GMT -5
I'm enjoying this book very much, it's the kind of book that, when you put it down, you can still feel the characters and Brooklyn around you it's great! This is one of the best novels I've read in quite some time, I can't believe I waited that long to get a copy!! As soon as I began reading Chapter 2, the one about Francie going to the library, I knew I was in for a treat. I think we can all relate to Francie's love of books, and I really enjoy how this theme comes back at different points in the novel. Although I've never been to Brooklyn, the descriptions are so vivid that it almost feels like I could find my way through the different neighborhoods if I were to go (but of course, I'm assuming there isn't much left of Francie's Brooklyn nowadays!). I feel exactly the same, it's like being actually there! I loved reading that part of Chapter 2, and also the description of Francie going to read on the fire escape. Oh, and it's funny, her method to read all books of the library, because I had the same thought when I was a child and first went to a public library! Good vs. bad people theme: I found it very interesting and I agree with what you guys said about it. It shows everyone has their good qualities and weakness, which is a more realistic thing. What do you guys think of Katie's father? I feel sorry for Mary because she's such a great character, I love her philosophy, particularly how she sees the good in bad people but also the idea of giving children all knowledge and a bit more. I admire her perseverance in saving some money everyday, if I were her, I think I'd get discouraged. “One thing I was wondering about, how did you guys feel about Sissy's advice that Katie should accept the fact that Johnny will always be a drinker? Do you think Katie could have "broken" him? Or was it just better for her to accept it and take charge of her family?” I don’t agree. I feel Johnny slipping into depression. He struggled from the beginning with caring for his family. Katie is holding the family together. At the end of book two he mentions that this will be his last home. I think Johnny knows that Katie is independent and doesn’t need him. At the beginning her love for him made him feel important. It made him feel in control, and that all slipped away when Katie stood up for her family. He says he never wanted a family and he could have married the other woman. Katie swooned over him and made him feel important. I think he feels useless. He disappointed his mother and now his wife. Francie loves him but the book mentions that she doesn’t realize his failures at this point. She still sees her dad as a hero. While Johnny is succumbing to the hardships, Katie is trying to persevere. She is a proud and hardworking mother. Katie is not the immigrant her mother was, she has learned from her mother's hardships and is determined to learn from her own hardships. I agree with bookaddict, I'm not sure Sissy did the right thing. I found interesting that both Johnny and Uncle Willie (Evy's husband) kind of feel inadequate to their wives. (I'm not sure "inadequate" is the correct word). It's funny, they sort of remind me of Mr. and Mrs. Bennet when it comes time to decide who's the better parent: Johnny is obviously much more kind and just like Francie we tend to like him better (the way we prefer Mr. Bennet), but on the other hand, if Katie wasn't there to take care of her family (just like Mrs. Bennet is the one making sure that her daughters get married to avoid poverty), who knows what would happen to poor Francie? I can see the similarity, even if Katie is a "little" less comic than Mrs. Bennet ;D
|
|
Isa
Administrator
Posts: 6,995
|
Post by Isa on Jan 15, 2009 20:35:43 GMT -5
You bring up a good point, lu. The women in the novel are pretty much all superior to the men, or at least they often act that way, and the men do feel it. Even Sissy who's had 8 or 9 miscarriages with different men still wants to believe it's the guy's fault and not hers! I think that's where her advice to Katie (to accept that Johnny is and always will be a drunk) stems from. I'd like to think that Katie would have been able to put Johnny back on the right track with a little tenderness and trust, but instead she chose to believe her sister that he could be nothing but a drunk when he had just turned 20!
I wonder if that's why Katie loves Neeley so much? She's had a lame father, a lame husband, a lame brother-in-law... perhaps she feels that Neeley is the one boy who can grow up to be the man she'll love?
|
|
|
Post by bookaddict on Jan 15, 2009 21:44:36 GMT -5
You bring up a good point, lu. The women in the novel are pretty much all superior to the men, or at least they often act that way, and the men do feel it. Even Sissy who's had 8 or 9 miscarriages with different men still wants to believe it's the guy's fault and not hers! I think that's where her advice to Katie (to accept that Johnny is and always will be a drunk) stems from. I'd like to think that Katie would have been able to put Johnny back on the right track with a little tenderness and trust, but instead she chose to believe her sister that he could be nothing but a drunk when he had just turned 20! I wonder if that's why Katie loves Neeley so much? She's had a lame father, a lame husband, a lame brother-in-law... perhaps she feels that Neeley is the one boy who can grow up to be the man she'll love? I can't figure out her love for Neeley. I don't understand it. I do see the women as superior to the men in this novel. They seem to be in control of everything. They don't hesitate to make the men inferior. I think we see more of this in the next book.
|
|
|
Post by neveralone on Jan 16, 2009 17:39:16 GMT -5
As this is my only pleasure reading for the month I told myself I would not use this book in my big project. I keep on seeing things that make me think "OH! I could use this in my paper..." this is one of them. I'm comparing the portayal of both men and women in literature and A Tree Grows in Brooklyn is really unique in that aspect.
|
|
Halie
Collection of short stories published by an independent editor
Posts: 982
|
Post by Halie on Jan 19, 2009 13:44:04 GMT -5
Some things I found interesting:
Francie and Johnny's love for each other: It's interesting that the characters who are seen as being "doomed" have more of a connection. I think part of the reason Katie loves her daughter less than Neeley is because, although she is a strong woman, she listens to what other people tell her instead of going her own way as Johnny does. She listened to her mother, to the midwife, to everyone when they told her Francie would die. She promised herself that Francie wouldn't, but she knew she'd love her less.
I also thought that Smith's writing style was perfectly suited to her subject matter. It's simplistic, the way a child would talk, while still being imaginative and descriptive, just like Francie herself. It also doesn't "cut corners" when describing harsh realities, which I think adds to what I like so much about this book.
My favorite part of this book so far is Katie's conversation with Mary right after Francie is born:
"I know there is no Santa Claus."
"Yet you must teach the child that these things are so."
"Why? When I, myself, do not believe?"
"Because," explained Mary Rommely simply, "the child must have a valuable thing which is called imagination. The child must have a secret world in which things live that never were. It is necessary that she believe. She must start out by believing in things not of this world. Then when the world becomes too ugly for living in, the child can reach back and live in her imagination. I, myself, even in this day and at my age, have great need of recalling the miraculous lives of the Saints and the great miracles that have come to pass on earth. Only by having these things in my mind can I live beyond what I have to live for."
I think this passage really captures the essence of the novel. I am certain this is foreshadowing for Francie.
I'm glad we chose this book; I've been wanting to read it for years (it's one of my grandmother's favorites) and I've owned it for months but have never gotten around to it. And this is my first book chat I've taken part in since joining RBC! I know I've been a member for ages (well, almost 6 months) but I've always been busy or unable to find the book in time. I like this format so from now on I'll try to take part more often.
|
|
Isa
Administrator
Posts: 6,995
|
Post by Isa on Jan 21, 2009 9:41:18 GMT -5
Moving on to Book 3, and to build on what halie was saying, I think that Francie's imagination also allows her to see the best in the world around her. At the beginning of Book 3, when the narrator describes all the shops in the neighborhood, we see that Francie is fascinated by and is able to take pleasure in the most trivial things (such as tea and spices), just like the bowl with the flower at the library, and this is something that she'll aways be able to do no matter how harsh reality becomes. Because at the same time, Francie begins to lose some of her innocence. First, there's the episode of the little schoolgirl who spits in her face, and then there's the episode at the doctor's (when they're getting vaccinated)... At that point, I think we start to feel that Francie is growing up and becomes aware of poverty, of social classes, and so on. When she comes to the conclusion that she'll never be the teacher's pet, we realize that she's not a child anymore. In this book we also see the contrast between Katie's strong hold on reality and Johnny's dreams. I couldn't help but be a bit mad at Katie for the whole kerosene thing - I know it works because Francie doesn't get sick, but at the same time she can't learn how to make friends and on her graduation day Francie finally realizes that she needn't have been so lonely all the time if she'd only tried to speak with her classmates. On the other hand, Johnny is crazy enough to go along with her plans and send her to a different school, where she finally is happy - but with the whole fishing incident, we see that even though Johnny always means well, his plans often end in disaster because he doesn't have a strong enough grasp on reality. Thankfully, we see that Francie will inherit both Katie's practicality and Johnny's imagination, and she'll be a better person for it. The issue of women vs. men comes up again in this section. If I remember correctly, I think Johnny laughs at the idea that women could vote someday, and that's when Katie has that "Mona Lisa" smile because she knows best. We then see Sissy tricking her husband into adopting a child, and Evy taking over her husband's job and being much more successful at it. The women in the novel never really argue about they're place in society - they just go ahead and silently make room for themselves Francie begins to write in this section, thanks to her teacher's advice. But near the end, when she gets scolded for writing about "ugly things" - when really she's only writing about life - she knows enough to burn her grade A compositions and keep the other ones, and I think that's when she truly becomes a writer. Which brings a question to mind: How autobiographical do you think this novel is?
|
|
Michelle
First novel published
Posts: 2,563
|
Post by Michelle on Jan 24, 2009 13:53:14 GMT -5
As I was finishing this section, I was asking myself that same question of how autobiographical the novel is. But my copy has no author section so I didn't find an answer. My guess is that the part with the writing is how Betty Smith discovered writing as well. Little girls are told to care about pretty things, but the much more interesting story is the one of a life that isn't perfect. I like the parts of the book where we see into Katie's thoughts. It gives us a bit of a break from Francie and we can really see how Katie must be thinking about her children and their survival/success all the time. I especially like the section with the Christmas tree that ends with: T hus Katie figured out everything in the moments it took them to climb the stairs. People looking up at her - at her smooth pretty vivacious face - had no way of knowing about the painfully articulated resolves formulating in her mind. (p. 82 in my copy). For some reason, this passage instantly became my favorite. Toward the end of Book 3, Francie overhears the conversations about all of the changes going on in the world. Could you imagine living in that time period where you have cars, radios, planes, and other mechanical things really taking off as well as lots of political changes like women's sufferage, WWI, and prohibition? I think we are sort of in a similar time period to a lesser degree. Technology is constantly changing. 10 years ago everyone didn't have cell phones, ipods, wireless internet, and all of the information in the world constantly at their fingertips. We are facing tough political times - an unpopular war, the rise of terrorism, a failing economy. Did anyone else see the similarities in Francie's turn of the century and our turn of the century? I am loving this book so far. I generally like coming of age novels because it is interesting to see the world through the eyes of a child growing up. And this own is just extremely powerful. I think I read 120 pages today just because I couldn't put it down.
|
|
Michelle
First novel published
Posts: 2,563
|
Post by Michelle on Jan 24, 2009 14:10:19 GMT -5
I just did a google search to see how autobiographical the novel is and most people believe that it is a pretty good reflection of her life growing up in Williamsburg. Also, she lived in Ann Arbor for awhile and took classes at the University of Michigan while her husband attended law school there.
|
|
Halie
Collection of short stories published by an independent editor
Posts: 982
|
Post by Halie on Feb 4, 2009 0:01:09 GMT -5
I must admit I'm having a hard time making my way through this novel. I like it enough, I suppose, but I don't think it's a work of genius, as I've heard so many times before. I think the depiction of poor Williamsburg is incredibly interesting, but it's just so predictable and I'm not having any "wow" moments.
|
|