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Post by Dominique on Oct 31, 2006 22:12:55 GMT -5
That's horrible Kristie, I'm sorry to hear that. It must be terrible for their families. Have they rolled out more support for young men in your community since then?
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Post by Dominique on Oct 31, 2006 22:27:50 GMT -5
Ok on to chapter 20, and then we can finally start the perfume!
I really loved one of the opening lines to this chapter, about the snow being the kind "that snuffs out schools and offices and churches, and leaves, for a day or more, a pure, blank sheet in place of memo pads, date books and calandars." I thought that was beautifully written. If you think about it that's sort of also what Esther's mental illness did to her life, it was so busy and hectic and full of plans before, and then there was just nothing.
Her resentment of her mother still seems present, she calls her a matyr and seems to be sarcastic about what she has done to her mother.
I really liked how she linked back the bell jar to the cadavars in this chapter, I thought that image was really very strong.
Buddy's visit is very awkward and bland. I thought it was interesting how Esther did all the work with the shovel, that was sort of what their relationship seemed to be like emotionally, he just expected her to do everything for him. But it's also sort of imasculating and goes against the 1950's image of the man as the provider, so it's ironic I guess.
The bit where he asks Esther if there's something in him that drives women crazy is funny. Also about how Esther asks the Dr if Joan was her fault. No one wants to be to blame for someone else's instability, and even if you are partially to blame no one will say so. Buddy contributed to Esther's problems with his attitudes and behaviour, but at the same time it was still also to do with something inside of her, so she lets him off the hook. It's a bit narcissistic to think you're the one who's to blame for two women trying to kill themselves, with one succeeding, which very much fits in with the character of Buddy and shows that he hasn't really changed that much.
It was pretty vindictive when he said he wonders who she'll marry now that she's been in a mental institution, and it seems pretty clear that he's trying to make her feel guilty for being ill, to make her want him to want to marry him again. But she doesn't really rise to the insult because she's come far enough to not care who she marries, or so it seems.
She says at the end that going in front of the doctors is like being married, or reborn and it is in a way, but at the same time who knows when she will need to get patched up again? I think the novel kind of implies this may not be the end by stopping here, rather than when she gets back out in the real world.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Nov 1, 2006 15:44:59 GMT -5
That's horrible Kristie, I'm sorry to hear that. It must be terrible for their families. Have they rolled out more support for young men in your community since then? Unfortunately there haven't been any changes to the community. I think what would be best would be to get a psychiatrist for the school, not just a guidance counselor, and make it mandatory for students to talk with them about their lives and stuff about once a month or something. It would be an improvement.
CHAPTER 20 I also thought it was really weird the way Buddy visited Esther. The snow shoveling part was very odd and I thought that Buddy should have at least offered to help. Not because she’s a girl and can’t handle it or it would be the gentlemanly thing to do, but just because they’re friends and it seems stupid to not help. The way Buddy kept bringing up Esther’s sickness was really rude I thought. He was being selfish again because he wondered if he caused crazyness. No, it wasn’t him, so he should stop thinking everything happens because of him. I think that Esther doesn’t want to marry anyone and probably never will. So she doesn’t care about who knows she was in a mental institution. At the beginning of her illness, when she was with the sailor and freaked about Buddy’s mother seeing her it was sort of obvious that she didn’t want anyone she knew to see her with the sailor. But I think it was more than the sailor, it was the illness she didn’t want people to know about.
I think it’s really good that Esther is going back to school and trying to finally get out of the hospital. It’s just great that she’s finally figured out at least one fig to choose and I think that she’s really capable of living normally. Esther overcame a lot of things throughout the book, but I think that she finally accepted she can’t choose everything, but that that’s no reason to try to choose nothing at all.
***Can't wait for Perfume!!!
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Nov 2, 2006 10:04:21 GMT -5
When shall we officially close down this discussion? I mean we can leave it open for people to comment about if they ever happen to read Bell Jar or something, but when do we officially start the discussion on Perfume
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Isa
Administrator
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Post by Isa on Nov 2, 2006 10:08:18 GMT -5
That's horrible Kristie, I'm sorry to hear that. It must be terrible for their families. Have they rolled out more support for young men in your community since then? Unfortunately there haven't been any changes to the community. I think what would be best would be to get a psychiatrist for the school, not just a guidance counselor, and make it mandatory for students to talk with them about their lives and stuff about once a month or something. It would be an improvement.I'm sorry too, Kristie, it must be really disturbing for everyone in the community. Quebec has one of the highest suicide rates in the world, I have no idea why. But people don't talk about it. It's always very hush, hush when a suicide happens, and they often try to cover it up. It's almost as though they think it might put the idea into other people's mind, but I think people should start addressing the problem by talking more openly about it and putting programs in place to prevent mental distress. There was a psychiatrist on TV the other day saying that if we only put 1% of all the money that goes towards cancer research towards research on mental diseases instead, we'd be able to save so many lives. After all, suicide is the second most important cause of death in Canada... (I'll finish with Chapter 20 later on tonight, but feel free to start working on the Perfume!)
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Nov 2, 2006 18:31:52 GMT -5
Only one of the suicides was really well known, like known about outside of the city. Last year, well, earlier this year, February 1, a boy who was a junior hung himself in the bathroom at school. So that made everyone know and the TV stations from the nearest big city, Toledo, were at the school and it was just horrible. Not to long before that this boy had donated a kidney to his dying twin brother. His brother is still alive. On their birthday this year, September 17th, which was the day before the 1 year anniversary of another student, the only one I'd really known, there was another student who hanged himself. Really bad timing...well, it's bad timing anyways. Death almost has no effect over me anymore. Like my cousin just died a few weeks ago from a long battle with cancer and I still have only had one real good cry about it. And even it wasn't so long. It's sad that I can almost not react to something as big as death anymore.
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Isa
Administrator
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Post by Isa on Nov 2, 2006 20:18:05 GMT -5
That's really sad Kristie, I'm sure eventually you'll find a way to deal with all these emotions... I've never lost someone close to me, except for my grand-parents but that's something you know is going to happen. So I have no idea how I would react if I were in your situation. The best thing is probably to talk about it?
Chapter 20
First off, I liked the contrast between Dr. Nolan and Esther's mother. While Dr. Nolan tells Esther that she needs to be aware that people might look at her and treat her differently, her mom still tries to pretend it was only a bad dream that will go away and that no one will remember. But Esther knows better - she knows she will remember and in fact I think she needs to remember or else she might get caught under the bell jar again.
In light of the final chapter, it almost seems like Esther losing her virginity and Joan's death were two inevitable milestones in the path leading to sanity. It seems quite clear to me that after Esther makes the guy pay the hospital bill and then goes to Joan's funeral, she finally seems free, and Buddy's visit serves to reinforce that image. He seems like the lost one in that scene, not her. It's true that he hasn't changed much, whereas Esther is a completely different person now.
I had an awesome time discussing that book with you two amazing ladies, even though it was hard at times to deal with topics like suicide and depression. I can't wait to see what you have to say about The Perfume!
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Nov 2, 2006 20:27:41 GMT -5
Yeah, talking helps. When I last saw my cousin it was a week before she passed. It was the first time my boyfriend had met that side of my family. I was fine until we got home. Then we were just sitting on the porch because I started losing it. It just wasn't fair. She had so much going for her and she fought so hard. Half of the reason I cry about death is because it reminds me how scared I am to lose the other people I love. I get so worried something will happen to my boyfriend all the time. But my cousin never asked "Why me?" when it came to her cancer, it was "Why anyone?" She was really optimistic through the whole thing. She's one of my role models, especially because I know her courage.
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Post by Dominique on Nov 2, 2006 23:36:21 GMT -5
It's very sad that neither of your communities have really taken steps to address suicide when it's such a big problem, it's so important in preventing it to really have it out in the open and talk about it, the issues around it and have a really communication friendly view of it. I've never had anyone I know die, not even my grandparents, but I can imagine it must be horrible. Many boys go through really angsty periods in their teenage years, but it's such a shame when their lives will get better after they eave school etc. Your cousin sounds like a great person Kristie
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Isa
Administrator
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Post by Isa on Nov 3, 2006 8:41:19 GMT -5
I think if more people knew that suicidal thoughts are most likely linked to depression, even in teenagers, and that there is a way to cure depression, it might help a lot.
You know Kristie, I think your cousin would be happy to know that she'll be your role model and inspiration for the rest of your life. I'm sure you'll think of her when good things and bad things happen. Just for that reason her life might have been short but it won't have been without a purpose.
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Post by gilmoregirls021 on Nov 26, 2006 20:46:45 GMT -5
I definatly agree with Jefie, i think that if more people realized that there are things that can be done to help people with suicidal thoughts that it really would help alot with less people actually going through with the suicide.
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bookworm148
Collection of short stories published by an independent editor
"Here is the root of the root and the bud of the bud and the sky of a sky of a tree called life."
Posts: 671
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Post by bookworm148 on Jan 31, 2007 10:40:43 GMT -5
I definately agree with Jefie and gilmoregirls021.
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