Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Oct 7, 2006 14:43:42 GMT -5
CHAPTER 12 In this chapter we see a few different ways that Esther thinks of killing herself with. She was going to cut her wrists, but only cut her leg instead because her wrists were too defenseless. Then when she goes the Deer Island Prison (why does she go there by the way?) she goes to the beach and is going to sit on the shore and wait for the tide to drown her, but she thinks twice about dying by the cold foamy water. The fact that she's being so particular about the way she wants to die shows that she's actually scared of doing it and chickens out or really just doesn't want to die as much as she makes it seem.
She has the shock treatment at Dr. Gordon's private hospital in this chapter and I think that the way she described what she was feeling during the process has to do with the whole infatuation with the Rosenbergs electrocution. Esther probably actually thinks she's being electrocuted. Because of what Dr. Gordon made her go through, she claims she's not going back to the hospital. Esther's mother is really happy at this point because she knew Esther would change her mind. Yeah, like Esther can definitely decide if she's going to be crazy or not. It's something wrong with her that she can't fix without help but her mother seems to think that it will all be fixed lickety split whenever Esther decides. And that's not the case at all...
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Post by Dominique on Oct 9, 2006 7:37:07 GMT -5
It's interesting how you said about she's afraid. I got the same impression and it reminded me how so many people supposedly play with the idea of suicide, imagine doing it in their heads. But then they forget about it and go on with life. It's like just that extra tip of the scales that sets Esther apart from everyone else in that respect when she actually tries it later. That reminded me of something we said earlier about how Plath was making Esther seem so normal so the reader would feel hey this could happen to anyone. The way she plays with the idea of suicide, shys away from it, tries to warm herself up to it reminds me of something I heard a character say in a movie or a song or something once about how so many young people at a certain age flirt with the idea of their own demise. She really could be anyone. Does that make sense? I think it was a bit of a rant lol. Also the way she compares herself to a dead starlet in the newspaper, she imagines herself to be already dead, with vacant eyes.
Esther's mother taking that attitude struck me as a bluntly obvious way Plath was trying to show how people's attitudes back then weren't compatible with recovery. The myths and misconceptions around mental illness and society's lack of understanding about them?
Did she go to Deer Island to kill herself so her mother wouldn't come home and find her in the act? She talks about renting a room to do it. But she starts with visiting the prison so maybe not? It could be a reflection of how she herself is mentally locked up. Or perhaps it's an erratic whim that sometimes goes in hand with mental illness?
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Oct 9, 2006 14:24:40 GMT -5
I agree with what you're saying about how Esther seems like she could be anyone. I think that Plath does a much better job showing the readers that Esther is like many many people than Salinger did with Holden. Partially because Esther actually experiences her mental illness throughout most of the book while Holden only talked about what came before he went nuts.
I also agree with you about the views of mental illness in the 1950s-60s. The little information doctors had about how to treat and cure the illnesses has definitely grown. The way Esther's mother just thought the illness would go away anytime Esther decided it would was just a way to show the naivete of all of the society.
I don't really understand the randomness of Deer Island, because I don't think she went there purely to kill herself. But I have no other idea why she would go...
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
|
Post by Kristie on Oct 11, 2006 15:11:51 GMT -5
CHAPTER 13 At the beginning of this chapter, Esther goes out with Jody, Jody's boyfriend, and their friend Cal to the beach. Again she thought of suicide and she sort of tried to push herself to swim so much she got tired and drowned, but she couldn't stand dying that way. After this scene at the beach, Esther tried to hang herself. I didn't particularly care for this part because there have been 4 suicides in the past 3 years at my high school, 2 of which were in my class (one of which was kind of a friend). I guess it made me think about them too much, but it was good to see what may have been going through their heads when Esther was contemplating it.
She went to the graveyard to see her father's grave. I thought this must have been really hard. Whenever there are funerals, I am never really sad until I see them close the casket. It seems that I still think there's a chance the person will come back to life, but once it's closed, there's no more chance. That was when I would start to cry. Death is such a horrible thing, and to lose her father at such a young age may have had to do with Esther's mental condition considering it definitely had an impact on her childhood.
We could tell that , at the end of the chapter, when Esther took all of her pills and hid herself where no one would find her that the part with the mental institution would be coming soon. I just can't comprehend the whole issue of suicide. But I was glad Esther would be going to get some help soon because she REALLY needed it.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Oct 11, 2006 19:41:10 GMT -5
Oops, I'm falling behind! So let's just say I agree with what you ladies said about Chapter 12, especially the part about the 1950's rather primitive view of mental illness. In Esther's mother's comment, I also sensed a bit of relief at the thought that she wouldn't have to pay for those expensive treatments anymore. Or maybe she just seemed so heartless to me because Plath deliberately refuses to develop this character - we don't even know her first name - so she seems cold and sterile, with her worthless advice that Esther should learn shorthand...
I also agree that the reason Esther keeps on thinking about committing suicide but always ends up finding good excuses not to do it shows that she doesn't really want to kill herself, but rather that she wants to be done with her life as it stands at the moment and can't rationally think of another way out. It's true that she makes us think of people we might know, or even of ourselves because I'm sure the idea has crossed the mind of most people at least once, whether it be in jest or in earnest.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Oct 11, 2006 20:08:42 GMT -5
Yikes, Kristie, I'm so sorry, I don't know anyone who's committed suicide - although I know a few that have tried - so I can't begin to imagine how you must feel about it. What I find rather strange about Esther's suicide attempt is that she does it at home. If you really wanted to kill yourself, wouldn't you make sure that no one you know could find you? But then again, most suicides seem to take place at home, so I don't know, I guess we'd need the help of a psychiatrist to figure that one out. Somehow I feel like the suicide attempt was a rite of passage for Esther, like she couldn't have overcome her problems otherwise and had to fall this low to finally rise above it all. But on the other hand, when we think about the fact that the book is largely autobiographical and that Sylvia Plath ended up killing herself, we see that it wasn't a real solution and could only afford momentary relief.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Oct 15, 2006 8:16:06 GMT -5
I found Chapter 14 very disturbing - Esther wakes up after her suicide attempt and she's definitely not doing any better. She's paranoid, violent, and no one seems to want to help her. Society's reaction to her suicide attempt is horrible: it's almost as though people fear it might be contagious and want to spend as little time as possible in her company, when really she needs all the help she can get...
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Post by Dominique on Oct 16, 2006 8:51:31 GMT -5
That is horrible Kristie, I've never experienced someone I know suiciding before and I can't imagine how awful it would be.
I agree with you Jefie about how paranoid Esther is in Chapter 14. It's like she's turned into a child at times.
One impression this chapter strongly gave me was that it seemed very much like the mental patients were like animals being gawked at in a zoo. Her random acquintance showing up to see what a crazy person looked like started it off, but then I felt it was further achieved by the character entitled "Mrs Mole" and her "oinking" noises and other various animalistic behaviour.
Throughout The Bell Jar I have gotten the impression that Plath is not only venting her own experiences through narrative, but also trying to teach her society about the nature of mental illness and try to change their narrow and limited understanding of it. This chapter is just one more example of that, with no one comprehending what Esther's going through. Not even the crazy lady in the bed next to her's. Throughout the novel there is never a character that Esther feels understands her, can help her, or feels lastingly connected to. Even the other crazy people treat her with fear. I think this shows how mental illness can be a vicious cycle, it isolates you from other people; having relationships with them and being able to relate to them, making you even sicker.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Oct 18, 2006 17:46:55 GMT -5
I agree with you completely, Poisonpen, and the feeling of isolation you describe brings us to the title of the novel, which comes up for the first time in Chapter 15. When Mrs Guinea steps in and arranges for Esther to be transferred to a much nicer psychiatric hospital, Esther says she can't be grateful because it doesn't matter where she is, she would always be "sitting under the same glass bell jar, stewing in my own sour air". So it goes back to what you were saying Poisonpen, that Esther's disease isolates her completely from other people and that no matter where she goes, what she does or who she's with, the sickness is always surrounding her. She can see the "normal" world through the glass of the bell jar, but she's trapped and doesn't know how to get out.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Oct 18, 2006 21:57:02 GMT -5
I think that it was really important that Esther went to that other hospital. It was almost like they were treated like nothing was wrong with them, to an extent, and Esther started to kinda evolve back into her real normal state. One reason she probably was so stuck in the bell jar was because she felt that she was being viewed like a bug beneath glass and when people didn't seem to be paying as close attention to her and her actions, she was able to come back to the norm.
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Post by Dominique on Oct 19, 2006 5:30:25 GMT -5
It's clever how the bell jar stands for so many things isn't it? Like you said Jefie it's an isolation cell, like you said Kristie it's like she's under other people's scruitiny like a bug under a glass. How many other things could it mean? There are probably a few. Maybe it's also like being trapped within your own head, an ill frame of mind you can't escape from. Almost like a mental prision.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Oct 19, 2006 6:53:55 GMT -5
You're both right, it is such a powerful image! And it works well because at first I was a bit puzzled by the meaning of the title, until I read Chapter 15, and then it makes so much sense.
I know a lot of people are anxious to start reading The Perfume so let's move on to the next chapter.
What did you make of the character of Joan? To me, her suicide attempt didn't seem like a serious thing at first: I mean, her feet hurt, then she read about Esther's disappearance and decided to kill herself. The one thing that did surprise me was the way she tried to commit suicide: she shoved her fists through the window, and I don't think Esther would have been able to do that. So maybe this was a sign of things to come.
But the fact that Esther is able to listen to Joan's story is a definite sign of improvement. For a while, nothing outside of her bell jar had any effect upon her and now for the first time she shows some interest for something that happened to another girl. And the chapter ends with Esther saying she hates her mother and Dr. Nolan smiles because she knows this means Esther is getting back in touch with her emotions, not matter how violent they are.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
|
Post by Kristie on Oct 19, 2006 18:01:10 GMT -5
I thought this chapter with Joan was weird. I think that Esther saw Joan and knew what she'd been like and could tell the difference from what she'd been to what she is. That made her think of herself. She realized she must have changed as much as Joan has and I think the whole experience with Joan sort of scared Esther into being normal again. She hadn't realized how bad she had been until she had seen someone like her get really bad.
When Dr. Nolan told Esther that she wasn't supposed to have any visitors for a while, I found it interesting that Esther was relieved. I think she doesn't want to see anyone from her life because she's afraid that when she looks at them she'll see what they're thinking about her. She really didn't want her mother to beat herself up by thinking it was her fault, I felt, and she doesn't want to realize by looking at others that she disappointed them with her life.
Did you think it was kinda funny when Esther forgot her own birthday? lol I found that funny because I always think that it's so hard to forget your birthday.
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Post by Dominique on Oct 21, 2006 1:45:19 GMT -5
I think you guys are doing chapt 15 and 16 at once? Cos Joan's stuff doesnt happen until 16 in mine. Just checkin, I don't mind cos people are probably waiting for us to hurry up and finish lol.
In Chapter 15 Philomena Guinea's black car reminded me of Dodo Conways black hearse. It's like the two cars are metaphors for death. Like choosing only being a writer means death to Esther and so does choosing only being a mother and popping out like a million kids.
The other thing that struck me was how that girl that Esther makes friends with in the hospital says she doesn't want to leave, it's like Plath is showing the effects of being institutionalised on some people: dependance and a preferation for incaceration as opposed to being out in the real world.
In this Chapter I feel like Esther is a bit better than before, just because she says she probably wouldn't have jumped out of the car even if her mother and brother weren't there. She still stores away information about how to kill herself and thinks about suicide obsessively, but it seems less like she's going to take action.
I think it's odd that the mother and the brother characters are so under developed because the first thing I think about someone committing suicide is how could you do that to your family? That kind of thing happening tears other people's lives apart as well as your own. I think it's odd that this aspect of the issue of suicide has been somewhat ignored when Plath seems to have been determined to cover so many others.
Chapter 16 Something that struck me about Joan was how Esther seems to be a bit of a celebrity now, Joan idolised her and seemed somewhat inspired to make an attempt on her own life from Esther's story. Philomena Guinea sought her ought after reading about her.
It is very odd that Esther forgot her own birthday. I don't really understand why she's upset about her mother reminding her, something which the nurse does seem to understand. Is it because it's commemorating the day she was born into a world she no longer wants to be a part of?
I think it would get very wearing and stressful to constantly have people coming in to try and cure you with ridiculous solutions like games of scrabble, so I can understand why Esther would be relieved. I'm not sure why the doctor decided she shouldnt have visitors though.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Oct 21, 2006 15:40:29 GMT -5
For some reason I think I just skipped chapter 15 and went right onto 16. There seemed to be more important things in 16 I must have thought, than in 15. Sorry bout that...But I agree with what you were asking about why Esther didn't want to remember her birthday. I hadn't really thought about it that in depth but I guess it could very well be because she was still living and she didn't want to be reminded of it at the time. But then again Esther was seeming to turn back into a more normal state at this time, so I think that's what's confusing me.
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