Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
|
Post by Kristie on Sept 28, 2006 17:21:03 GMT -5
First off, I would like to tell you about my first ski trip just earier this year. It scared the s-h-i-t out of me! Sure, I got the zig zag thing going, but I think it was a problem that I started skiing too late. See, since I was 18 all I could think about was what might happen on the way down/at the end that would be bad. I didn't hit anyone, amazingly because I have no idea how I didn't, but if I'd started at the age of like 7-8, I would've just thought about how cool it would be, not what could happen to me. Anyways...
The main thing I was thinking about in the 8th chapter wasn't the skiing, but how everyone seemed to think that Esther and Buddy would end up together. I thought it was kinda weird the way that everyone seems to want Esther to marry Buddy, like Mr. Willard so blatantly tells her. Esther herself isn’t sure what she wants to do with her life, so I guess it’s a smart thing that she has decided to never get married. If she didn’t know what she wanted to do in life and then got married, she’d have a real tough time because she may change her mind or want to take a further branch that would cause problems between her and her husband. Not to mention that Buddy seems pretty sure of himself and he appears to be quite certain that even with Esther refusing him now, she’s sure to come around and see the practical-ness and how she really was made for only him.
Personally, I couldn’t be that kind of wife either: the 1950s housewife. Just cooking and cleaning and taking care of my husband and children. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll be happy to do that when I get married and have kids, but I don’t want to do just that. I would feel much more fulfilled if I contributed to something other than just my family. Women are soo much more out in the world now than they were in Esther's day and I think that all her wants were just many future women roled into one. Does that make any sense?
|
|
Isa
Administrator
Posts: 6,995
|
Post by Isa on Sept 28, 2006 19:57:36 GMT -5
Yes, it does make sense, I think Esther would have fitted much better into present-day society, she was so much ahead of her time. But I get the feeling she would have broken down anyways, something different would have triggered it, but you can tell she's got a fragile spirit.
Funny, reading The Bell Jar makes me realize even more that I could never be a stay at home mom. Not that there's anything wrong with women who choose to do that, I just think I couldn't handle it, maybe because my mom never stopped working when she had me so I grew up with the idea that women can work and have a family, just like men.
|
|
Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
|
Post by Kristie on Sept 30, 2006 11:23:19 GMT -5
is it alright to move onto chapter 9???
at the beginning of this chapter, esther was having her picture taken for the magazine. i thought it was a little weird that she cried when they wanted to take her picture though. i think that maybe she cried a little because jay cee told the photographer that esther wanted to be everything and i think that made her sad because she knows she can't do all that she wants...she has to give something up eventually to choose something else.
then there was the party scene. at first, the deal with the diamond from marco just confused me, but i looked at it again and i understood. obviously marco just gave esther the diamond because he wanted something for it in return, but esther's unexperienced and she didn't understand that when she took it. i think doreen wanted to sorta help esther with her naivete, but she shouldn't have just left her alone with a guy lenny said was alright. that's not really being a good/caring friend.
|
|
|
Post by Dominique on Oct 1, 2006 4:52:22 GMT -5
Yeah I agree about the photo, it was like the question of what do you want to be was so confusing and confronting she just broke down.
I was a bit confused about the diamond bit before you explained it like that, so thanks for upping my understanding of this chapter lol. That's a good point about Doreen, originally I saw it more as the generally apathy people feel towards others which could have contributed to her depression. It could very well be both I suppose, Doreen doesn't really care what happens to Esther but feels someone needs to give her a shove out into the world maybe?
|
|
Isa
Administrator
Posts: 6,995
|
Post by Isa on Oct 1, 2006 10:06:30 GMT -5
I agree with you guys about the photo event. But I've got another question, why does Esther care so much about the Rosenbergs? The only thing I can see is that they're about to get electrocuted and she's about to receive shock treatments and if you go back to Chapter 1, Esther says "The idea of being electrocuted makes me sick ... it had nothing to do with me, but I couldn't help wondering what it would be like, being burned alive all along your nerves". And then when Hilda says "I'm so glad they're going to die", it's almost as though Esther takes it personally, like a death sentence. But I'm just wondering if there might be more to it than just that simple connection...
The character of Doreen has bugged me from the beginning, it's almost like she's a dark presence lurking over Esther's life, constantly pushing her in the wrong direction. At the party, what struck me was Esther's apathy - Marco is incredibly violent and yet she sticks by him and even considers letting him rape her so she can finally lose her virginity. She's losing grip with who she is and doesn't seem to care what happens to her body. When she comes back home that night, she dumps all her clothes down from the roof, as if she's completely letting go of her life...
|
|
Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
|
Post by Kristie on Oct 2, 2006 17:37:04 GMT -5
I had completely forgotten about the Rosenberg thing. It was weird that Esther was so into their story, but the electroshock thing doesn't happen til Chapter 12 (I've read ahead some) I thought. I still think you're right about the electrocution concept though.
I agree with you, poisonpen, about Doreen not quite caring, but feeling someone needs to shove Esther into the real world. I think that is one of the better ways to describe Doreen.
|
|
Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
|
Post by Kristie on Oct 2, 2006 19:25:32 GMT -5
Chapter 10 now... This is definitely the chapter in which we realize that Esther is positively going insane. Especially the ending, when she’s referred to a psychiatrist, supports my thoughts all along. (When I first started this, for some reason it reminded me of Holden Caulfield, only not so annoying and stuff…I actually like this book so far.) Anyways, at the end of Chapter 9 Esther throws away all her clothes on a whim. Then she goes home and can’t figure out what fig from what branch to pick. I mean, Esther seems to want to do many things that are really different from each other. She’s definitely scared to have a career because she wants to stay in school, it seems, forever. Esther doesn’t like not being told what to do, I think, and so she’s having problems. It seems that there was probably always someone else with her helping her pick the right figs, but now she’s all alone and she doesn’t have any idea which way to go. When she didn’t get into that writing class thinger, she, all of the sudden, had no future plans. Esther seemed to plan far into the future, aside from picking her career, but her plan could be messed up as soon as one step went wrong. Since she didn’t get into the writing class, she lost all sense of the future and nothing really seemed important. She’s lost. It seems there are too many figs to choose from! And yet, none is the right one for her if she could ever manage to think that far ahead…
|
|
Isa
Administrator
Posts: 6,995
|
Post by Isa on Oct 2, 2006 21:01:14 GMT -5
As one who actually likes Holden Caulfield I think you're totally right in saying that Esther and he are quite similar. In fact, I think that was one of the major criticisms when the novel came out, that Plath had just created a feminine version of Holden. Now we all know that Esther is much more than that but still, everyone saw some similarities. I completely agree with your reading of Chapter 10, she definitely loses it for good! First by not wiping the blood away on her cheek. I think that even as she felt there was something wrong with her while she was in New York, Esther was still struggling to keep up appearances and fit in. Now she doesn't seem to care what anyone thinks of her anymore. I also agree with you that not getting into the course was the last straw. If she had gotten in, she probably could have been able to sleepwalk through those plans she had made a while ago: studying all through summer, staying with her friend Jody's in Cambridge... but she's in no state of mind to make any kind of new plans and so she just slips away.
|
|
|
Post by Dominique on Oct 3, 2006 0:58:45 GMT -5
The blood stain thing seemed very primitive and tribal to me. Definately a clear sign that all is far from right with Esther.
Her fixation on the Rosenburgs again reminded me of the apathy of people in our society towards other people. These people are sentanced to death and Esther, an immature character, is the only one who cares. Her world seems very cold, individualised and isolated at times to me.
|
|
Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
|
Post by Kristie on Oct 3, 2006 14:00:54 GMT -5
I had almost forgotten about the blood stain on her cheek. I agree that it seems premitive. She goes through a lot of trouble to make sure the mark remains on her face for the world to see. It's the beginning of not caring about her appearance or hygiene (followed by the mulitple weeks with no showers). It seems that the blood may have been a way for her to get people to notice her, because they'd prolly look at her if she had a physical difference than just her own self.
|
|
Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
|
Post by Kristie on Oct 3, 2006 14:03:08 GMT -5
Chapter 11::: So I definitely thought that this was really a weird chapter. I can understand Esther’s reluctance to tell Dr. Gordon some things, but if I ever went to a psychiatrist, I would hopefully realize that I’m there for help and I would try to tell them all I could so they would really be able to understand and help me. (But then, the closest I’ve ever felt to having any mental issues was when I was having PMS and later I was fine thinking about the same things.) Esther is clearly unstable. She doesn’t like to do the things that are repeated daily because in the end she’s going to die anyways. I agree there have been times when I didn’t want to shower because it felt so redundant, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t. I know that it’s important to do those things because first: personal hygiene and second: repeating things gives you a routine. But maybe she just didn’t want a routine. She wants to be spontaneous now, but she doesn’t know how to.
I don’t understand the bit with the sailor. Was that just a trip into her further deteriorating mind? She obviously doesn’t like her life and always wants to pretend that she is another person with another past.
|
|
Isa
Administrator
Posts: 6,995
|
Post by Isa on Oct 3, 2006 17:30:14 GMT -5
I also like the idea that the blood stain is a bit like Esther got officially branded as a lunatic of some sort...
|
|
Isa
Administrator
Posts: 6,995
|
Post by Isa on Oct 3, 2006 18:33:29 GMT -5
In Chapter 11, when Esther realizes she can hardly read and write anymore, it's like every tiny fact that used to define who she was is slipping away. How can you be a poet when you can't even write? How can you be an editor when you can't read?
Then she meets Dr. Gordon, who kind of reminds me of Buddy. He shows no more interest in her as a patient than Buddy did in her as his fiancee. They both seem to look at her as merely another example of a human being, without caring about her personality or what's on her mind. Maybe that's why Esther doesn't feel inclined to sharing her feelings with Dr. Gordon, she knows he won't listen. He doesn't seem to believe what she says and merely jumps at the chance of testing some new treatments.
When Esther pretends to be Elly Higginbottom and actually thinks about running away to Chicago, I think it's a sign that she wants to do away with her life. But she realizes it's impossible to do it like that, first when she thinks she sees Mrs. Willard, which means her past would always be with her and there would always be a chance of being found and recognized, and second when she realizes she doesn't have enough money for a bus ticket. She therefore moves on to the next best thing: suicide.
|
|
Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
|
Post by Kristie on Oct 4, 2006 13:47:56 GMT -5
I agree with you about comparing Dr. Gordon to Buddy. They both really don't seem that interested in her as anything past face value. And I also think you're right about how Esther wanted to go to Chicago as a way with ending her life. I realized that she wanted to move on to a place where no one knew her and she could start over again. Then she did need to move onto suicide because her past would always be at the front of her mind.
|
|
|
Post by Dominique on Oct 5, 2006 19:31:10 GMT -5
The connection you make with her pretending to be Elly Higginbottom and her suicide attempts I totally agree with Jefie.
By no longer being able to read or write Esther has lost her identity. She can no longer pick certain figs from the tree. She has grossly departed from the safe world of academia and every possible career she had planned for herself. Her mental illness has eaten away at her and without her grand aspirations she no longer wants to be a part of her life. The things she loved the most were taken from her by her mind.
The blood stain, the throwing away of clothes, the not showering are of course all clear signs of her deteriorating mental helth. But they are also very childlike actions I think. Very impulsive and kind of nieve.
|
|