Post by Isa on Sept 17, 2006 8:23:12 GMT -5
Started by Poisonpen
Hey I've moved these two posts to here just so the threads for the bookclub are organised so new users interested in certain books can find them easily later etc. Hope that's ok?
Quote:
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On 2006-07-22 09:53:00, Jefie wrote:
Sounds good, shall we begin?
I think what struck me the most at the beginning of this book was how I could easily relate with Esther - that bit about her not knowing what to order for a drink, and that feeling she's got of not being excited enough, that's happened to me before. I wonder if Plath did that on purpose so the reader would feel closer to Esther and somehow relate to what she goes through later on in the book?
I'm also interested in the dichotomy between Doreen and Betsy but I'm not sure what to make of it yet. Esther says she feels she's more like Betsy, but she can't relate to her and finds it easier to get along with Doreen. Is this the first sign of her personality breaking down?
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Quote:
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On 2006-07-22 13:27:00, ThursdayNext02 wrote:
i agree.
sorry there isn't more, i don't really feel like talking. i'll be more responsive on the next one.
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[ This Message was edited by: poisonpen on 2006-07-23 08:17 ]
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poisonpen
Beginner
I agree that I really felt a deep sense of similarity between myself and Esther as well, that's a good point about Plath doing it on purpose so that we could relate to the character better during the end of the book. Maybe it's meant to show that anyone can go off the rails at some point in their lives? That the narrator could have easily been you?
Maybe the conflict between the Betsy and Doreen characters represents Esther's inner conflict with her own identity?
I love discussing books with people You think of things about it you wouldn't think of otherwise.
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Jefie
Recurring Character
Quote:
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On 2006-07-23 08:23:00, poisonpen wrote:
I love discussing books with people You think of things about it you wouldn't think of otherwise.
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I completely agree with you there! That's what I miss the most about school...
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ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
ok, lets do next weeks now, cause i won't be here.
chapter 2:
it seemed more like a bridge chapter, nothing really happened, it just finnished the thing with doreen and that guy, and set up the food poisoning incident.
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Jefie
Recurring Character
What I found interesting in the second chapter is again trying to figure out what message Plath is trying to convey to the reader through the character of Doreen. Is she Esther's dark side? Because in the second chapter, Doreen ends up with her breasts flying all over the place, probably having sex and then coming back home puking, while Esther somehow undertakes a purifying process, walking for 48 blocks to sober up and then soaking up in a hot bath (which reminded me of Blanche in A Streetcar Named Desire), as if to cleanse herself from Doreen's influence. What do you guys make of it?
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ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
i agree, thats a verry good point. plath even usees the word purify in esther's thoughts on the bath. i think that that is a metaphore for her being perpetually cleansed. she can't stand to be anything other than pure. which means that she will ultimatly wind up in the exact place she started. she's one of those people who makes planes their entire life about the places they'll go, and the people they'll meet, then winds up doing the same as their parents in the same town in the same house, misreble. i think that says more about the author than the characters, we all know that plath is crazy, but this makes it easier to see why and how. maby she just coulden't take how redundent her life felt to her
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ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
this isn't really book related, but i'm leaving today and coming back in 2 days. i won't be responding to anything, so can somone take care of the sarcastic remaks for me? just kidding. why don't we do the next chapter when i get back? i'm dying to talk about the end, i'm allmost done with it. please, no spoilers!!!
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poisonpen
Beginner
Unfortunately now that uni terms started again the last two weeks I haven't had time to read anything that wasn't out of a textbook
I'm gonna have to catch up on the bell jar some more.
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Jefie
Recurring Character
I'm leaving on Friday and I'll be gone for a week (I'll miss you guys!) so here's my analysis of the third chapter: I think the scene where Esther eats all that food at the banquet is a very important metaphor. Because she grew up poor, caviar is obviously not something her family could afford, but once she got introduced to it by her grand-father, she could not get enough. At the banquet, she can finally eat all the caviar she wants and she does so, topping it off with chicken and crabmeat. In the end, she gets really sick, so it's almost as though all the things she's wanted the most in life, like caviar, getting good grades, studying abroad and writing, might not be worth it in the end. She becomes really confused at that point and loses all the passion she had. Or am I reading too much into this scene?!
Good luck with your courses Poisonpen!
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i second everything you just said. also, it's interesting that this amazing future that the banquet represents is litteraly going to kill her. just a thought.
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poisonpen
Beginner
thanks for the well wishes, have fun where you're off to.
Back to chapter one for a sec, there seems to be a fair bit of foreshadowing (if that's the right word) in that she tells the reader about how when she's better she brought the lipstick and all the freebies back out again. Do you think by telling the reader Esther would be ok Plath wanted to put the focus more on the journey through mental illness than the result? Cos from the beginning we know she's going to be ill; she says she knew something was wrong with her, we also know she will be better. So the only mystery that remains is how will she get ill and what will happen while she is.
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ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
verry good. thayt an interesting idea.
i'm getting home today, and i'm happy because blockbuster finnaly sent the first disk of roswell(i've allready gotten the 2nd and 3rd disks form the series, thats blockbuster for yah!) so when i get home i'll be able to watch the forth and fith disks then the next day i'll get the first disk.
[ This Message was edited by: ThursdayNext02 on 2006-08-08 12:03 ]
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Jefie
Recurring Character
poisonpen, you've definitely got a point there. If I hadn't been told beforehand that she gets better in the end, it would totally have changed my perception of the story as I was reading it. I think I probably would have found it more depressing. Could it also be that Plath was hoping to give her novel a less tragic tone? Most of the novel's contents is autobiographical, maybe she was hoping that her own life would end on a good note?
(I'm going to Halifax, Nova Scotia!)
[ This Message was edited by: Jefie on 2006-08-03 13:44 ]
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ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
wow, this sucks, everyones leaving. well, how about tomarrow we do the next chapter and leave it there for a coupple of weeks so people can respond. the problem is, my school is starting back up on the 16th, so i have limited time.
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poisonpen
Beginner
hi everyone,
sorry I know I'm behind and I keep going back to chapter one when you've already discussed it, but I just wanted to say that I really loved the line
"I thought of crawling in between the bed-sheets and trying to sleep, but that appealed to me about as much as stuffing a dirty, scrawled-over letter into a fresh, clean envelope."
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ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
it's ok. are you back now? if you are we should do the next chapter. all of us.
i won't be on much thursday and friday, but i will still be on . i have some stuff for school, so the middle of the day is shot. oh well.
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ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
ok, chapter four;
did all of the lilac imagry stric anyone else as important? well i did, so i looked it up and found this on www.handfasting.info/h_symbols.html
Lilac (purple) Protection, First emotions of love
Lilac Confidence
Lilac (White) Innocence, youth, purity
isn't it interesting that that one of the futures that esther wants is descrbed by one flower. a future that entails comfort confidence, and overall happyness.
sorry about skipping ahead on the last analasys, but it still works hear. this amazing future that she sees, and describes in jay cee, has poisoned her. it has tainted her view of her future. she allways know that she would wind up in her home town, but the internship has falsified her ideas of her future.
these are just thoughts, feel free to dispute them, that would be great. i just love finding hidden meanings of things, so i thought about that description more,and relised that the flowers on the hat where imitation, which means a compleatly diff. thing. i'll let you guys take that one, i won't to see if i'm just reading to much into this.
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poisonpen
Beginner
For me it was sort of like she mapped out everything, she worked and worked and worked and then through her internship she started to see everything she wanted stretched out in front of her, beginning to be in reach and she was sort of like what's the point in all that? Do I still want to be doing this? Come to think of it what's the point in everything? As the book continues she seems to have lost interest in alot of things, from the magazine internship to that Buddy guy which is a sign of depression I guess. To me it seemed like she was having some sort of existential crisis or something. I mean so worked SO hard it makes out in the book and then she's just seems to see everything as futile and meaningless.
Sorry a bit of a rant I know but hey.
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ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
If that’s a sign of depression, then I have a major problem. One of her problems is that she sees her world and sees where these futures will take her and she doesn't like it. I understand the because once upon a time I wanted to be a print journalist. I wanted to write Op-Eds for some major paper. I was then informed by my family that print journalism was dieing in place of TV, and I really didn't want to be an anchor. Since then I’ve changed it to rhetoric, but Esther wasn't lucky enough to live in modern times where there is an almost infinite list of carriers for women. now we have more value than just being a smart business decision for some corporate man.
i think that was more than just a bit of ranting, but if i didn't they would take my feminist card away.(it's a joke, sorry if it offends someone)
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poisonpen
Beginner
That is true about Esther's time frame, I agree with you.
I don't know what you mean about my post being more than a bit of ranting due to you being a feminist? I don't understand how Esther's sex had anything to do with my post? I was looking at it more as about someone who obviously has spent much of her time slaving away (Which I can very much relate to as I worked my butt off all through High School to get into my double degree, which has a duration of five years and I have majorly gone off the law part which was the bit that made it highly difficult to get in to.), rather than someone of a specific sex... I would have thought the same thing if she was a he.
Please clarify?
Oh and I didn't mean that it's a sign of depression in just that she wasn't sure what she wanted to do anymore, she seems to lose interest in most aspects of her life as she slips further into mental illness. Maybe I have that perspective because I've read the book before and I'm letting it influence my chapter by chapter analysis, I'm not sure where abouts you're up to?
I certainly didn't intend to indicate that changing your mind about a career was an indication you had depression, sorry if I wasn't clear.
[ This Message was edited by: poisonpen on 2006-08-10 03:14 ]
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ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
wow, thats so sweet that you cared enogh to ask, but most of that was a joke. i know you weren't trying to say i'm depressed.
in regard to the feminist coment i made, i consider myself a feminist. i said what i did, because even now women aren't respected as much as they should be.all i ment is that she allready felt trapet by her gander, then all of the personal stuff. and by saying "just being a smart business decision for some corporate man. " i didn't mean sex, i meant that it's usually good for the head of a company to have a family, because it makes him seem more like the rest of us.
sorry about the missunderstanding.
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poisonpen
Beginner
thats ok, but I still don't understand how my post was against feminist values...
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ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
simple, it wasn't and i really didn't mean that, sorry if it came across like that.
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Jefie
Recurring Character
Hey guys, I'm back and happy to get back to the book discussion!
What stands out for me in Chapter 4 is of course Esther's illness. Although it is a physical ailment, I think it foreshadows her mental illness. When the nurse and then Doreen come in to take care of her, I think she enjoys the feeling of letting go of everything and letting others care for her, just like she thereafter wants to let go of the pressure to perform, the pressure to find a job... She also has to go through hours of purging to come out "famished" in the end, which is basically what her mind is about to go through.
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poisonpen
Beginner
that's an interesting view of chapter 4 Jefie, I like it.
Hey I've moved these two posts to here just so the threads for the bookclub are organised so new users interested in certain books can find them easily later etc. Hope that's ok?
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 2006-07-22 09:53:00, Jefie wrote:
Sounds good, shall we begin?
I think what struck me the most at the beginning of this book was how I could easily relate with Esther - that bit about her not knowing what to order for a drink, and that feeling she's got of not being excited enough, that's happened to me before. I wonder if Plath did that on purpose so the reader would feel closer to Esther and somehow relate to what she goes through later on in the book?
I'm also interested in the dichotomy between Doreen and Betsy but I'm not sure what to make of it yet. Esther says she feels she's more like Betsy, but she can't relate to her and finds it easier to get along with Doreen. Is this the first sign of her personality breaking down?
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Quote:
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On 2006-07-22 13:27:00, ThursdayNext02 wrote:
i agree.
sorry there isn't more, i don't really feel like talking. i'll be more responsive on the next one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[ This Message was edited by: poisonpen on 2006-07-23 08:17 ]
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poisonpen
Beginner
I agree that I really felt a deep sense of similarity between myself and Esther as well, that's a good point about Plath doing it on purpose so that we could relate to the character better during the end of the book. Maybe it's meant to show that anyone can go off the rails at some point in their lives? That the narrator could have easily been you?
Maybe the conflict between the Betsy and Doreen characters represents Esther's inner conflict with her own identity?
I love discussing books with people You think of things about it you wouldn't think of otherwise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jefie
Recurring Character
Quote:
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On 2006-07-23 08:23:00, poisonpen wrote:
I love discussing books with people You think of things about it you wouldn't think of otherwise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I completely agree with you there! That's what I miss the most about school...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
ok, lets do next weeks now, cause i won't be here.
chapter 2:
it seemed more like a bridge chapter, nothing really happened, it just finnished the thing with doreen and that guy, and set up the food poisoning incident.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jefie
Recurring Character
What I found interesting in the second chapter is again trying to figure out what message Plath is trying to convey to the reader through the character of Doreen. Is she Esther's dark side? Because in the second chapter, Doreen ends up with her breasts flying all over the place, probably having sex and then coming back home puking, while Esther somehow undertakes a purifying process, walking for 48 blocks to sober up and then soaking up in a hot bath (which reminded me of Blanche in A Streetcar Named Desire), as if to cleanse herself from Doreen's influence. What do you guys make of it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
i agree, thats a verry good point. plath even usees the word purify in esther's thoughts on the bath. i think that that is a metaphore for her being perpetually cleansed. she can't stand to be anything other than pure. which means that she will ultimatly wind up in the exact place she started. she's one of those people who makes planes their entire life about the places they'll go, and the people they'll meet, then winds up doing the same as their parents in the same town in the same house, misreble. i think that says more about the author than the characters, we all know that plath is crazy, but this makes it easier to see why and how. maby she just coulden't take how redundent her life felt to her
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
this isn't really book related, but i'm leaving today and coming back in 2 days. i won't be responding to anything, so can somone take care of the sarcastic remaks for me? just kidding. why don't we do the next chapter when i get back? i'm dying to talk about the end, i'm allmost done with it. please, no spoilers!!!
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poisonpen
Beginner
Unfortunately now that uni terms started again the last two weeks I haven't had time to read anything that wasn't out of a textbook
I'm gonna have to catch up on the bell jar some more.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jefie
Recurring Character
I'm leaving on Friday and I'll be gone for a week (I'll miss you guys!) so here's my analysis of the third chapter: I think the scene where Esther eats all that food at the banquet is a very important metaphor. Because she grew up poor, caviar is obviously not something her family could afford, but once she got introduced to it by her grand-father, she could not get enough. At the banquet, she can finally eat all the caviar she wants and she does so, topping it off with chicken and crabmeat. In the end, she gets really sick, so it's almost as though all the things she's wanted the most in life, like caviar, getting good grades, studying abroad and writing, might not be worth it in the end. She becomes really confused at that point and loses all the passion she had. Or am I reading too much into this scene?!
Good luck with your courses Poisonpen!
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i second everything you just said. also, it's interesting that this amazing future that the banquet represents is litteraly going to kill her. just a thought.
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poisonpen
Beginner
thanks for the well wishes, have fun where you're off to.
Back to chapter one for a sec, there seems to be a fair bit of foreshadowing (if that's the right word) in that she tells the reader about how when she's better she brought the lipstick and all the freebies back out again. Do you think by telling the reader Esther would be ok Plath wanted to put the focus more on the journey through mental illness than the result? Cos from the beginning we know she's going to be ill; she says she knew something was wrong with her, we also know she will be better. So the only mystery that remains is how will she get ill and what will happen while she is.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
verry good. thayt an interesting idea.
i'm getting home today, and i'm happy because blockbuster finnaly sent the first disk of roswell(i've allready gotten the 2nd and 3rd disks form the series, thats blockbuster for yah!) so when i get home i'll be able to watch the forth and fith disks then the next day i'll get the first disk.
[ This Message was edited by: ThursdayNext02 on 2006-08-08 12:03 ]
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Jefie
Recurring Character
poisonpen, you've definitely got a point there. If I hadn't been told beforehand that she gets better in the end, it would totally have changed my perception of the story as I was reading it. I think I probably would have found it more depressing. Could it also be that Plath was hoping to give her novel a less tragic tone? Most of the novel's contents is autobiographical, maybe she was hoping that her own life would end on a good note?
(I'm going to Halifax, Nova Scotia!)
[ This Message was edited by: Jefie on 2006-08-03 13:44 ]
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ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
wow, this sucks, everyones leaving. well, how about tomarrow we do the next chapter and leave it there for a coupple of weeks so people can respond. the problem is, my school is starting back up on the 16th, so i have limited time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
poisonpen
Beginner
hi everyone,
sorry I know I'm behind and I keep going back to chapter one when you've already discussed it, but I just wanted to say that I really loved the line
"I thought of crawling in between the bed-sheets and trying to sleep, but that appealed to me about as much as stuffing a dirty, scrawled-over letter into a fresh, clean envelope."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
it's ok. are you back now? if you are we should do the next chapter. all of us.
i won't be on much thursday and friday, but i will still be on . i have some stuff for school, so the middle of the day is shot. oh well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
ok, chapter four;
did all of the lilac imagry stric anyone else as important? well i did, so i looked it up and found this on www.handfasting.info/h_symbols.html
Lilac (purple) Protection, First emotions of love
Lilac Confidence
Lilac (White) Innocence, youth, purity
isn't it interesting that that one of the futures that esther wants is descrbed by one flower. a future that entails comfort confidence, and overall happyness.
sorry about skipping ahead on the last analasys, but it still works hear. this amazing future that she sees, and describes in jay cee, has poisoned her. it has tainted her view of her future. she allways know that she would wind up in her home town, but the internship has falsified her ideas of her future.
these are just thoughts, feel free to dispute them, that would be great. i just love finding hidden meanings of things, so i thought about that description more,and relised that the flowers on the hat where imitation, which means a compleatly diff. thing. i'll let you guys take that one, i won't to see if i'm just reading to much into this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
poisonpen
Beginner
For me it was sort of like she mapped out everything, she worked and worked and worked and then through her internship she started to see everything she wanted stretched out in front of her, beginning to be in reach and she was sort of like what's the point in all that? Do I still want to be doing this? Come to think of it what's the point in everything? As the book continues she seems to have lost interest in alot of things, from the magazine internship to that Buddy guy which is a sign of depression I guess. To me it seemed like she was having some sort of existential crisis or something. I mean so worked SO hard it makes out in the book and then she's just seems to see everything as futile and meaningless.
Sorry a bit of a rant I know but hey.
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ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
If that’s a sign of depression, then I have a major problem. One of her problems is that she sees her world and sees where these futures will take her and she doesn't like it. I understand the because once upon a time I wanted to be a print journalist. I wanted to write Op-Eds for some major paper. I was then informed by my family that print journalism was dieing in place of TV, and I really didn't want to be an anchor. Since then I’ve changed it to rhetoric, but Esther wasn't lucky enough to live in modern times where there is an almost infinite list of carriers for women. now we have more value than just being a smart business decision for some corporate man.
i think that was more than just a bit of ranting, but if i didn't they would take my feminist card away.(it's a joke, sorry if it offends someone)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
poisonpen
Beginner
That is true about Esther's time frame, I agree with you.
I don't know what you mean about my post being more than a bit of ranting due to you being a feminist? I don't understand how Esther's sex had anything to do with my post? I was looking at it more as about someone who obviously has spent much of her time slaving away (Which I can very much relate to as I worked my butt off all through High School to get into my double degree, which has a duration of five years and I have majorly gone off the law part which was the bit that made it highly difficult to get in to.), rather than someone of a specific sex... I would have thought the same thing if she was a he.
Please clarify?
Oh and I didn't mean that it's a sign of depression in just that she wasn't sure what she wanted to do anymore, she seems to lose interest in most aspects of her life as she slips further into mental illness. Maybe I have that perspective because I've read the book before and I'm letting it influence my chapter by chapter analysis, I'm not sure where abouts you're up to?
I certainly didn't intend to indicate that changing your mind about a career was an indication you had depression, sorry if I wasn't clear.
[ This Message was edited by: poisonpen on 2006-08-10 03:14 ]
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ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
wow, thats so sweet that you cared enogh to ask, but most of that was a joke. i know you weren't trying to say i'm depressed.
in regard to the feminist coment i made, i consider myself a feminist. i said what i did, because even now women aren't respected as much as they should be.all i ment is that she allready felt trapet by her gander, then all of the personal stuff. and by saying "just being a smart business decision for some corporate man. " i didn't mean sex, i meant that it's usually good for the head of a company to have a family, because it makes him seem more like the rest of us.
sorry about the missunderstanding.
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poisonpen
Beginner
thats ok, but I still don't understand how my post was against feminist values...
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ThursdayNext02
Recurring Character
simple, it wasn't and i really didn't mean that, sorry if it came across like that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jefie
Recurring Character
Hey guys, I'm back and happy to get back to the book discussion!
What stands out for me in Chapter 4 is of course Esther's illness. Although it is a physical ailment, I think it foreshadows her mental illness. When the nurse and then Doreen come in to take care of her, I think she enjoys the feeling of letting go of everything and letting others care for her, just like she thereafter wants to let go of the pressure to perform, the pressure to find a job... She also has to go through hours of purging to come out "famished" in the end, which is basically what her mind is about to go through.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
poisonpen
Beginner
that's an interesting view of chapter 4 Jefie, I like it.