Isa
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Post by Isa on Jan 9, 2011 14:43:35 GMT -5
Here's a tentative schedule, let me know what you think: Chapters 1 to 14: Start discussion on Jan. 21 Chapters 15 to 28: Start discussion on Jan. 23 Chapters 29 to 40: Start discussion on Jan. 28 Chapters 41 to 53: Start discussion on Feb. 3
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Lu
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Post by Lu on Jan 16, 2011 14:05:33 GMT -5
I haven't received my copy yet, I hope it'll get here tomorrow. I should have ordered it earlier, but I had forgotten the 13th was holiday in the city.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Jan 17, 2011 18:44:40 GMT -5
No problem, I still have about 25 pages left to read in the first section so perhaps I should modify the schedule a bit? I'm enjoying the story so far, it moves a bit slow at the beginning and there's not the same kind of atmosphere there usually is in the Brontë novels I've read, but it's still pretty good!
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Jan 18, 2011 18:40:53 GMT -5
Me again! I'm done with the first section now (and I can't wait to keep on reading!) but I don't want to start the discussion if others haven't had time to finish it yet. What about you Kristie, how's it going?
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Jan 18, 2011 21:32:05 GMT -5
I had a busy weekend, so I just started reading today. But I'll be done with it sometime tomorrow, so feel free to go ahead and post something. I'll respond to whatever you've written after I share my original thoughts.
But I also found a website with some questions for discussion about the book, so here are questions for the first 15 chapters (even if we're only reading up through 14). And, of course we don't have to answer them, but they might strike up some interesting thoughts.
1. In the opening chapter, Gilbert and Fergus are explaining to their mother what they have spent the day doing. What is the significance of this brief scene?
2.What is the significance of the first description we get of Wildfell Hall in the long third paragraph of Chapter 2?
3. Chapter 3 deals with the question of how to raise a young boy. What do you make of this debate, and does the novel come down on one side or the other?
4. Near the end of Chapter 6, Gilbert observes his mother and sister making busy preparations in the kitchen. How do you interpret the inclusion of this scene?
5. Fergus often says things out loud that others would only dare whisper in private. What do you think about his comments to Helen Graham in Chapter 7 when he suggests that gossiping is a kind of game? Is it?
6. Chapter 9 makes a big deal out of "eyes." What is their importance to this point in the novel?
7. In Chapter 12, Markham debates whether or not he should reveal his love to Helen. What do we make of the language he uses in trying to convince himself to do so?
8. Take a close look at the encounter between Gilbert and Mr. Lawrence in Chapter 14. How would you characterize Bronte's depiction of the assault?
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Lu
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Post by Lu on Jan 19, 2011 6:47:20 GMT -5
I got it now (finally!) and I'll begin reading it at lunch. Well done, Kristie. We already have questions to answer. If you want to start the discussion, I think I'll be able to catch up with you in two or three days.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Jan 20, 2011 6:26:46 GMT -5
OK, I modified the schedule but only slightly so we can start the discussion tomorrow but move on to the next section quickly after that. Trust me, once you get to chapters 14-15, it becomes really hard to put the book down!
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Jan 21, 2011 9:40:41 GMT -5
Thanks for posting the questions, Kristie! They really got me thinking...
I'm now about halfway through the second section and I'll do my best not to discuss what's going on after Chapter 14, but I do have to say that I now have a better comprehension of what Anne Brontë is doing in the first few chapters of the novel. My first impression of the book was that the action was kind of slow, and really "normal" for a Brontë novel: a family living in the countryside, a young man interested in a young girl, the rustic social gatherings and Sunday mass, women taking care of their men... I was sort of wondering where this was all going. But now that I've read on, I think Brontë wants to contrast that typical, socially acceptable way of life with the passionate and unconventional love story that develops later on in the novel. So I guess I'll have more to say about all this when we start discussing the second part on Sunday, but I'm really looking forward to hearing what you guys think of the book so far!
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
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Post by Kristie on Jan 21, 2011 22:09:51 GMT -5
I really enjoyed this beginning. I especially liked the first chapter, in which Markham describes the residents of the village and how Bronte wrote it. Markham was supposed to have been writing the descriptions to a friend of his in a letter, but yet it didn't exactly feel like a letter when reading it. The beginning was typical of the Bronte sisters. It was slower moving, but still sort of building up something that lets you know it's going to get interesting if you can stick through it.
Question #3 asks "Chapter 3 deals with the question of how to raise a young boy. What do you make of this debate, and does the novel come down on one side or the other?" And I kept this question in mind when I was reading. And, quite frankly, I love the little debate that comes from Mrs. Graham's treatment of Arthur. I think it deserves some direct quotes to illustrate the debate:
"What is it that constitutes virtue, Mrs. Graham? Is it the circumstance of being able and willing to resist temptation; or that of having no temptations to resist?...If you would have your son to walk honorably through the world, you must not attempt to clear the stones from his path, but teach him to walk firmly over them--not insist upon leading him by the hand, but let him learn to go alone." p22, Markham's side
"It must be either that you think she [women in general] is essentially so vicious, or so feeble-minded, that she cannot withstand temptation, and though she may be pure and innocent as long as she is kept in ignorance and restraint, yet, being destitute of real virtue, to teach her how to sin is at once to make her a sinner, and the greater her knowledge, the wider her liberty, the deeper will be her depravity..." p25, Mrs. Graham's side
Essentially, there is some hypocritical line of logic in Markham. What you might not get from the quotes is that Markham says young boys shouldn't be brought up to have no temptations but to know how to resist them--they can't be virtuous if they're brought up in ignorance. And Mrs. Graham says, "Well, what about girls? Can't they have virtue even though they aren't brought up to know temptation, but to be complete concealed from it?" And basically Markham is befuddled at this--he doesn't really come up with a great answer.
Moving on...
I don't know what to think of Mrs. Graham. Towards the end of this section, she is seen in private with Mr. Lawrence. They're just talking...and touching intimately (for the time). But Markham is in love with Mrs. Graham and at times it appears she is trying not to feel anything for him. So, does she love Markham or is there really something going on between herself and Mr. L?
And what of the fact that Markham assaulted Mr. L in Chapter 14?! What was that? I mean, Markham technically had no incentive to whip Mr. L. Yes, he believes Mrs. Graham might be loving Mr. L, but that's not Mr. L's problem. Maybe this physical fight is the male version of what might happen between women if they were fighting for the same man--which, I imagine, would've been just talking/gossiping about each other, etc.
But I can't wait to hear Mrs. Graham's history! I want to know what happened to what I'm assuming is a sleaze-ball of a husband. He has to be pretty bad if she's so smothering of Arthur, in my opinion.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Jan 21, 2011 22:16:39 GMT -5
Thanks for posting the questions, Kristie! They really got me thinking... I'm now about halfway through the second section and I'll do my best not to discuss what's going on after Chapter 14, but I do have to say that I now have a better comprehension of what Anne Brontë is doing in the first few chapters of the novel. My first impression of the book was that the action was kind of slow, and really "normal" for a Brontë novel: a family living in the countryside, a young man interested in a young girl, the rustic social gatherings and Sunday mass, women taking care of their men... I was sort of wondering where this was all going. But now that I've read on, I think Brontë wants to contrast that typical, socially acceptable way of life with the passionate and unconventional love story that develops later on in the novel. So I guess I'll have more to say about all this when we start discussing the second part on Sunday, but I'm really looking forward to hearing what you guys think of the book so far! I know there has to be something scandalous in the future. Mrs. G is so reserved and so protective of Arthur, and she doesn't have a husband. Therefore, I assume the husband was no good and that her history wasn't without scandal. So she'll be bringing it the the quaint village of and the rumors and gossip will abound! I'm excited to see where it goes!
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Lu
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Post by Lu on Jan 22, 2011 3:19:27 GMT -5
I finished reading section 1 yesterday and started the 2nd. I'm really enjoying this book so far, the first chapters were a bit slow but it was interesting to be introduced to the characters. At first I was worried to see that the novel is in letter form, but it doesn't sounds too much like a letter. Markham calls the first chapter "first installment of my debt" and I wonder what that debt is...I'm really curious! Question #3: I agree with Kristie about Markham's line of logic, I have to say that I had to read those part twice because it didn't make much sense when I first read it. I loved when Mrs Graham says: Granted; but would you use the same argument with regard to a girl? After this I feel incined to have a good opinion of Mrs Graham, I know (I read about it somewhere) there's something scandalous in her past and that's the reason why she wants to live so secluded, but I'm quite confident she will explain that and her relationship with Mr Lawrence as well. Question #1: Maybe it's just to show the reader the differences between the two brothers, but I'm not sure. I had thought about it but the thing I noticed is that Mrs Markham, who accuses Mrs Graham of doting her son Arthur, has done the same with her sons. I don't like Mrs Markham very much, she reminds me of Lady Catherine de Bourgh in some ways, expecially for being so plain-spoken and wanting to persuade people. And btw, nobody takes any interest in how Miss Markham has spent her day. I don't know what to think about Gilbert Markham...sometimes he seems sensible, then he assault Mr Lawrence, which was really awful. To me, it seems like an unjustifiable reaction and Mr Markham doesn't even feel so sorry about what he did. A character I really dislike is Eliza. Mary, dear, that won't excuse you in Mr Markham's eyes, he hates cats, I dare say; as cordially as he does old maids - like all other gentlemen - don't you Markham? Mary is unmarried and several year older than Eliza, I don't know if that makes her an old maid, but I hate Eliza's remark anyway! Question #4. I think it was included in order to give Gilbert Markham the opprtunity to make amends for what he's said during the argument in chapter 3, haha. I had the impression this debate is connected with the "how to raise a boy" debate. I'm reading Mrs Graham's story now, I'm enjoying the change of narrator.
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Kristie
Novel turned into BBC miniseries
"If a book is well written, I always find it too short."
Posts: 7,214
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Post by Kristie on Jan 23, 2011 14:01:26 GMT -5
I'm still getting through the second section, but here are some more questions for us to discuss. I'm not sure iwhat chapters the last ones are in, as the chapter numbers aren't in the questions. All I know is that the questions are at least before chapter 33.
Chapters 16-22
1. In Chapter 16, Helen's aunt uses the language and imagery of military engagement to describe courtship. How consistent is Bronte with the use of this metaphor, and why do you think she uses it?
2. Helen says that she is an excellent physiognomist: someone who can determine a person's character by their looks. Do you think Bronte supports the science of physiognomy, or is she critiquing it in her novel?
3. What do we make of Helen's thought processes in the long opening paragraph that begins Chapter 18?
4. In Chapter 18, what is the significance of the fact that Helen is unable to adequately draw Huntingdon's portrait?
5. What is the significance of hunting in this part of the novel?
6. In Chapter 20, what is the significance of the part played by Helen's uncle?
7. The early stages of Chapter 22 find Huntingdon revealing that Lowborough is a recovering gambling addict. What is the significance of his description of the evening when Lowborough finally gives up gambling?
Chapters 23-43
1. What is the significance of Helen's father being an alcoholic?
2. Why is Helen deceived by the profligate Huntingdon, and yet always seems to be on her guard against the far less offensive Hargrave?
3. What analogy can be made between Helen's difficulties in checking Hargrave's advances in the chess game and her inability to draw Huntingdon's portrait (and thereby, "contain" him)?
4. The language of chess can make for all manner of innuendo and double meaning. Support this idea with reference to the chess game between Helen and Walter.
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Lu
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Post by Lu on Jan 24, 2011 13:02:16 GMT -5
I'll start with section 2. I'm really enjoying this part and it's very interesting to see the younger Helen, the diary begin in 1921, I guess Helen is about 19 at that time (I missed if she's mentioned her age...). It struck me that Helen understands her husband's character and faults before they're married, that she accepts them thinking she'd be able to reform him. It's also interesting that both Helen and Millicent end up marrying someone different from what they thought, althought they're situation is quite different. Talking with her aunt (in chapter 16), Helen says: I note only should think it wrong to marry a man that was deficient in sense or principle, but I should never be tempted to do it; for I could not like him, if he were ever so handsome and ever so charming in other respect; I should hate him - despise him - pity him - anything but love him. My affections not only ought to be founded on approbation, but they will and must be so: for without approving I cannot love. When Helen tells Millicent about her engagement, Millicent is surprised, tells Helen she doesn't like him and I'll be satisfied with flesh and blood too - only the spirit must shine through and predominate. I wonder, isn't Mr Huntingdon's (and his friends') idea of marriage quite similar to Mrs Markham's one? I mean, they all believe that a wife has "to do what's more agreeable to the gentleman of the house." I'll try to answer a few of the questions (they're not easy ). [Ch 16 - 22]Question #2. I don't think Bronte supports physiognomy but I don't have the impression she openly criticize it eiher. It's just that I don't consider Helen as a good example of physiognomist, in this part of the novel at least. She falls in love with Mr Huntingdon and she's persuaded she'll be able to reform him, a thing that doesn't seem possible at that point. She doesn't like Mr Boarham and Mr Grimsby, but we see them only from her point of view and we can't be sure she's right. [Ch 16 - 22]Question #4. That's an interesting question, it might be that she hasn't understand his true character, or that her idea of him is different than what he really is. I'm no painter so I don't know what's important to draw a portrait.
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